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The best Shortstop in the NL East

If you're going to war tomorrow --- a war that coul last for years --- who do you want on your side?

Yunel Escobar, Atlanta	0 votes
Hanley Ramirez, Florida	12 votes
Jose Reyes, New York	14 votes
Jimmy Rollins, Philadelphia	2 votes
Cristian Guzman, Washington	0 votes

AG/DC Jun 19 2008 02:54 PM

This is too close to call, so I'm putting it to a vote. Guzman is quietly having himself a season.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 19 2008 02:58 PM

I like Reyes best but I voted for Rollins

Gwreck Jun 19 2008 03:01 PM

Reyes is 4 years younger. If the war is only going to last -- say, 2 years -- the vote might be different.

Nymr83 Jun 19 2008 03:01 PM

give me Ramirez.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 19 2008 05:24 PM

You can't just dismiss Rollins despite being older than the other two, but if you're asking which player will have the most value at shortstop for the rest of their career, being four and a half years older than your competition is a HUGE disadvantage. I'm gonna choose between Reyes and Ramirez. Reyes, 2006: .300/.354/.487/115 OPS+/.293 EQA/58.8 VORP/-12 FRAA/3.80 RFg/+13 plusminus/7.5 WARP3 Reyes, 2007: .280/.354/.421/103 OPS+/.284 EQA/46.2 VORP/14 FRAA/4.05 RFg/+13 plusminus/10.3 WARP3 Reyes, 2008: .297/.359/.488/124 OPS+/.325 EQA/30.4 VORP/5 FRAA/4.22 RFg/9.4 WARP3 Ramirez, 2006: .292/.353/.480/116 OPS+/.291 EQA/54.9 VORP/-9 FRAA/4.34 RFg/7.7 WARP3 Ramirez, 2007: .332/.386/.562/145 OPS+/.325 EQA/89.5 VORP/-22 FRAA/4.09 RFg/-37 plusminus/9.3 WARP3 Ramirez, 2008: .294/.384/.513/137 OPS+/.315 EQA/35.4 VORP/-4 FRAA/4.21 RFg/8.4 WARP3 Tough, tough call. Ramirez is clearly the better hitter, while Reyes is a lot better in the field (I included whatever fielding bible data I could find). Aw, screw it, I'm taking Jose.

metirish Jun 19 2008 05:31 PM

I'll take Ramirez , I hate that I am even admitting that.

seawolf17 Jun 19 2008 05:45 PM

I voted for Reyes; but at gunpoint, I'm really tempted to go with Hanley Ramirez.

MFS62 Jun 19 2008 06:07 PM

If you're going to war tomorrow, you'd better win soon, or you might be dead in a number of years. So I pick Rollins to fight for me tomorrow, even though he's older. "Number of years" wasn't specific enough. Later

TransMonk Jun 19 2008 06:15 PM

Ramirez. That Reyes kid ain't bad, though.

TheOldMole Jun 19 2008 07:11 PM

Since you can't go wrong with any of the three of them, I voted for Reyes.

smg58 Jun 20 2008 04:33 AM

Reyes. Defense matters too much at shortstop for me to give this to Hanley.

AG/DC Jun 20 2008 05:48 AM

This really could change with a couple of different polls. Who do you want if you were in a seven-game series starting next week? Who do you want to finish the season with? Who do you want over the next three years? Who do you want for the rest of their careers?

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 20 2008 07:10 AM

Jimmy Rollins, 2008: .289/.353/.468/110 OPS+/.290 EQA/19.1 VORP/0 FRAA/4.33 RFg/4.9 WARP3 It's probably just a slow start (and it's still pretty damn good for a shortstop), but if you're gonna ask me who helps the most right now, I don't put Rollins with Reyes and Ramirez, who are both tearing the cover off the ball.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 20 2008 07:21 AM

Tim Marchman weighs in on the Reyes vs Ramirez debate: http://www.nysun.com/sports/a-creative-take-on-the-nl-all-star-ballot/80381/

Elster88 Jun 22 2008 02:08 PM

The numbers are closer than I thought but I don't see why Reyes would be picked over Ramirez except for Homerism. And Ramirez is a little younger.

Zvon Jun 22 2008 03:36 PM

IMO Ramirez, [u:df6ef02b77]at the plate[/u:df6ef02b77], is everything I expect Reyes to be when he realizes his full potential. In the field Reyes has it all over him, and probably the best arm of them all. Reyes has the potential to be the best but he falls short at this time. For unintangible reasons. Rollins is what he is...a phrakin Phil. Leadership wise he would get the nod. I think he has more intangibles than the Capt himself. But if it's my team, and right now I could have any shortstop, gimme Hanley.

Nymr83 Jun 22 2008 03:49 PM

i dont think Reyes will ever put up a year at the plate like the one Hanley Ramirez had last year.

AG/DC Jun 22 2008 06:54 PM

I don't think Ramirez ever put up a year on defense like Reyes at his worst. The real story is the defending MVP getting shafted in this poll.

AG/DC Jun 22 2008 07:18 PM

This season Yunel Escobar, Atlanta 109 OPS+, 328 PA, 2 SB, 4 CS Hanley Ramirez, Florida: 144 OPS+, 334 PA, 19 SB, 5 CS Jose Reyes, New York: 123 OPS+, 337 PA, 26 SB, 7 CS Jimmy Rollins, Philadelphia 103 OPS+, 230 PA, 15 SB, 0 CS Cristian Guzman, Washington 101 OPS+, 339 PA, 3 SB, 2 CS By the way, zone rating stats suggest I don't know what I'm talking about. Hanley is kicking Jose's ass.

Elster88 Jun 22 2008 09:40 PM

Sure enough about the defense. Going by old-fashioned errors Reyes owns Ramirez, even though Reyes is assuredly no stud himself. But if defense is 15% of the game (or was it 10%?, I'd still take Ramirez if I had no emotional attachments.

Elster88 Jun 22 2008 09:41 PM

="AG/DC"]This season Yunel Escobar, Atlanta 109 OPS+, 328 PA, 2 SB, 4 CS Hanley Ramirez, Florida: 144 OPS+, 334 PA, 19 SB, 5 CS Jose Reyes, New York: 123 OPS+, 337 PA, 26 SB, 7 CS Jimmy Rollins, Philadelphia 103 OPS+, 230 PA, 15 SB, 0 CS Cristian Guzman, Washington 101 OPS+, 339 PA, 3 SB, 2 CS By the way, zone rating stats suggest I don't know what I'm talking about. Hanley is kicking Jose's ass. Why even bring SB into it? Shirley that doesn't mean much in the scheme of this discussion?

AG/DC Jun 22 2008 10:05 PM

It means what it means. Everything counts. Stolen bases are not covered in OPS+, so there it is.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 23 2008 08:48 AM

Elster88 wrote: The numbers are closer than I thought but I don't see why Reyes would be picked over Ramirez except for Homerism. And Ramirez is a little younger. 6 months younger, not a big deal (like when ESPN did a story at the beginning of the season about the best shortstops under age 25, but omitted Reyes, 24 at the time, because this is his year 25 season). There's more to it than homerism- Hanley has been, through his career so far, a butcher in the field. He has improved this year, but his defensive stats still hurt his "overall game"-type numbers: Win Shares 2006/07/08 Reyes 29/24/11 Ramirez 25/29/13 WARP3 2006/07/08 Reyes 7.5/10.2/8.7 Ramirez 7.7/9.4/8.8 Very close. The reason I give Reyes the edge is because I think that, Ramirez, a bad shortstop with lots of range, will wind up playing center field sooner rather than later. Now, If he improves his D to the point he could stay at the position, I'd go with him, easily.

AG/DC Jun 23 2008 08:53 AM

My thinking also.