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Dee-Fence (less)

Frayed Knot Jul 01 2008 07:31 AM

I keep getting this nagging feeling that we're in the midst of a Murphy's Law season; that even when the individual actions aren't that bad the results still are. The two-out runs is an example. That we've given up a larger pct of our runs w/2 out than any other team implies that we're almost getting out of innings without further damage, but not quite. Well defense looks like it's another. Gary mentioned on TV the other day about how the NYM infield had the lowest pct of turning grounders into outs - and he said it wasn't even close. But even beyond those 'outs not made', the errors they are making are hurting more than they should. The error total is somewhat high to start with (4th most in NL) - but they compound it by having those errors lead the most unearned runs allowed. In other words, not the most errors but the most damage from them: over half a run per game. The Mets have the league's biggest gap between ERA and Runs/Game (.52 runs), double the gap of the league leading Cardinals.

Fman99 Jul 01 2008 07:33 AM

These two things -- the shoddy defense and inability to get out of innings unscathed -- are a big part of what makes this team so hard for me to watch on a daily basis.

seawolf17 Jul 01 2008 07:57 AM

Get me Rey Ordonez and John Olerud! Seriously, though, that's an issue, and it's one that's not going away because of the fact that the infield is all locked up. They're going to have to muddle through it and get someone who can pick it at first for 2009.

MFS62 Jul 01 2008 08:25 AM

Its tough to throw a runner out at first when the ball has gone through the second baseman's legs. Later

AG/DC Jul 01 2008 08:57 AM

I think our top culprit is Luis Castillo. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=80&sortColumn=zoneRating Ray Durham, though, is off the chart. But check out our other infielders in zone rating Jose Reyes, fourth from the bottom http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=82&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=zoneRating David Wright, third from the bottom. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=81&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=zoneRating Carlos Delgado, fourth from the bottom: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=79&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=zoneRating For whatever the reason, we're doing a Florida-esque job of catching the ball this season.

attgig Jul 01 2008 09:49 AM

so when will Manuel start to have extra mandatory infield drills for these 4 butterfingers?

Frayed Knot Jul 01 2008 10:36 AM

And again, the main problem isn't just the defense (it's bad but not THAT bad) it's that the errors manage to combine with poorly timed pitching to allow those baserunners who should never have been there in the first place to score. Other teams have more or similar numbers of errors yet fewer unreaned runs. The most obvious example was the Santana/Felix H. GS last week. But even last night (runs which probably weren't included in the above numbers and would make this look even worse if they were) Castillo gets a bad hop ... OK, it happens, but OF COURSE there were two outs and a runner on when it happened so a run scores. And Wright tried that off-balance throw which winds up in the dugout and the runner takes 2nd ... which is immediately followed up with a run-scoring single. Fans always talk about how it SEEMS like their team allows every mistake to come back and bite them, or how it always SEEMS like their guys are forever giving up 2-out runs ... but in our case, for this season, it actually is true and what it's created is a team whose total is WORSE than the sum of it's parts.

smg58 Jul 01 2008 10:38 AM

Reyes and Wright are surprising, as they've been better than average fielders up to this point in their careers. You have to assume (and hope) that will turn around. Castillo is getting older and has bad knees. He should never have been offered two years, much less four. Delgado I think is being scapegoated for the problems the rest of the infield have been having as well. I'd prefer my defensive replacements at first base to be able to make accurate throws to the pitcher when needed.

Rockin' Doc Jul 01 2008 03:21 PM

seawolf - "...They're going to have to muddle through it and get someone who can pick it at first for 2009." I had a flashback to the Mientkewicz era and almost got sick. The Mets need someone who can provide a power bat while hitting above .265 and is average or better defensively at first. I would love to see Texeira in a Mets uniform next year, but I suspect he'll be wearing pinstripes of a more sinister shade of blue.

Vic Sage Jul 01 2008 03:34 PM

thanks, doc, for that blurt of sense. "A guy who can pick it" at 1b is, if not the least of their problems, certainly a problem of a lower priority than having a 1bman with an OPS+ significantly better than Delgado's current rate of 94, or last season's 103.

seawolf17 Jul 01 2008 07:06 PM

I'm not saying they forego offense entirely. I'm saying a current version of John Olerud would be much more desirable than a current version of, say, Mo Vaughn or Carlos Delgado. Teixeira would be fine; so would a Casey Kotchman-type.

Elster88 Jul 01 2008 09:53 PM

avi

AG/DC Jul 02 2008 09:02 AM

Keith has been hitting Reyes recently for being flatfooted as the pticher deals. Manuel says in the News that it's something they're working on with him.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 02 2008 09:18 AM

Snooze also suggested that Willie had no luck preaching the same things to Reyes.

AG/DC Jul 02 2008 09:37 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 02 2008 10:37 AM

My technique: "OK, Jose. We'll just hang Willie's picture here over your locker right next to Art Howe's. If you want to rack up more trophies of managers who you didn't listen to and who got themselves fired, keep a-doing what your'e doing." Yeah, I guess that could backfire.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 02 2008 10:26 AM

This focus on defense seems in a way to have come from out of the blue. I know we only started talking about it very recently. Has the defense suddenly gotten worse? If so, then maybe it's just a collective slump that will run its course. And if it's been like this all year, why the sudden focus? Is it because the new manager and staff have decided to address it, where Willie's staff was less inclined to do so? Or it it that other problems, like the bullpen and outfield offense, have become less of an issue. (The pen has certainly improved, and hopefully Church's return will go a long way to solving the weak outfield.)

AG/DC Jul 02 2008 10:38 AM

I think because it's a trend that takes a while to reveal itself. If it makes you feel better, we may well be posting about it in ignorance long after it's been fixed.

Frayed Knot Jul 02 2008 10:47 AM

I think part of the sudden focus is the same thing that triggered me to start this thread; because the plays not made are often being turning into runs. Nothing tends to make you focus on a problem then getting burned by it. Has it gotten worse? - I think Reyes has. I've never thought him to be anything spectacular to start with, but he was fairly efficient and mistake free prior to this season. Other than him no one else is suddenly bad, but those who are deemed to be not hitting enough (Castillo, Delgado, Schneider) are going to be easier targets. btw, Baseball Prospectus list our "defensive efficiency" (the rate at which non-HR batter balls are turned into outs) at .712, or 12th best of the 30 MLB teams.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 02 2008 10:57 AM

I think it was Gary yestrday who said that although the D has gotten attention recently, it's really the offense that concerns Jerry. I'm with Jerry. Jerry is the man.

Vic Sage Jul 02 2008 02:14 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 02 2008 02:31 PM

seawolf17 wrote: I'm not saying they forego offense entirely. I'm saying a current version of John Olerud would be much more desirable than a current version of, say, Mo Vaughn or Carlos Delgado. Teixeira would be fine; so would a Casey Kotchman-type. well, if your talking about a "current version of Olerud", your talking about a guy with a career OPS+ of 128, whose 3 seasons with the Mets were 135, 163 and 128 (with a career high of 186), so you're really not "forego"ing very much offense. Based on his career OPS+, Olerud was in the class of Keiith Hernandez, Eddie Murray and Don Mattingly, in the 127-128 range. Texiara (131) is more similar to Mo Vaughn (132) and Delgado (137), in the class of Palimiero, Cepeda, McGriff, and Will Clark, in the slightly higher 131-137 range (but none of these guys are in Dick Allen's range of 156, with a season high of 199!). But if you're talking about Kotchman, then you're really talking about a "mark grace" type (119 OPS), along with Garvey, Joyner, Gallaraga, Tino Martinez , with Gill Hodges and Cecil Cooper at the upper edge of a lower 112-121 range. So, philosophically, the real question isn't whether you'd take Texiera (or Olerud in his prime!) over Delgado right now... of course you would. who wouldn't? Its whether you would sacrifice offense for defense, by taking Kotchman ("mark grace" ) over, say, Ryan Howard, whose 141 OPS+ is more comparable to Delgado's 10-year peak. Anyone who doesn't take Howard over Kotchman is someone i want GMing the Phillies for the next decade.

Centerfield Jul 02 2008 02:17 PM

There he goes again, trying to downplay the value of DEFENSE and BALANCE.

Vic Sage Jul 02 2008 02:20 PM

in other words, if Delgado were hitting his career averages, we wouldn't be talking about his deficient defense, because the Mets would be scoring alot more runs, and whatever he gave up with his glove would hardly be noticed. If you replace his glove but not his bat by bringing in a Kotchman type, your just fussing around the fringes of the problem. The problem is a 1bman with a sub-100 OPS+, not a 1bman with a crappy glove.

Vic Sage Jul 02 2008 02:20 PM

Centerfield wrote: There he goes again, trying to downplay the value of DEFENSE and BALANCE. i got yer balance right here, pal...

Nymr83 Jul 02 2008 02:24 PM

Centerfield wrote: There he goes again, trying to downplay the value of DEFENSE and BALANCE. what the heck is "balance"? a quest for across-the-board mediocrity? and what makes you think "balance" will win championships anyway? if you want to talk about defense, fine, but i don't think "balance" means anything, if a guy helps you out enough with his glove to overcome mediocre hitting (lets say omar vizquel or ozzie smith in their primes) then thats fine, but you don't look to add a defensive-oriented player just because you don't have one.

Vic Sage Jul 02 2008 02:32 PM

i'm pretty sure CF was just busting chops there, Namor.

Nymr83 Jul 02 2008 03:40 PM

i can never remember who the joe morgan-ish defender of stupidity and ignorance towards numbers is around here, and thus dont know who is joking.

Frayed Knot Jul 02 2008 04:18 PM

The joke is one that's directed towards a long-gone poster who was forever crying about the need for DEFENSE!!!! and BALANCE!!!! in the lineup. Ya kinda had to be there.

Rockin' Doc Jul 02 2008 05:44 PM

Of all the positions on the field, the one I'm least likely to to be concerned with their defensive abilities is first base. At first base, I want a masher that can drive in runs. As long as he can make the basic plays defensively and isn't a total butcher, then I'll take his bat and let a scrabble-like player fill in for him in the late innings.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 02 2008 05:48 PM

He's no Gold Glove, but I think Delgado's defense is adequate. It's not fair to compare him to Mo Vaughn. He may not have much range, but he does a nice job around the base, with his footwork and his handling of the ball. It's his bat which has been the problem. He's got a decent home run total, but he needs more singles and doubles.