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Alou and the LF gang

mario25 Jul 01 2008 09:20 AM

I think that if Alou comes back and is out again within a few weeks (or games) it is time for Fernando Martinez to come up and inject some speed and young life into this team. He cant do any worse than the tandem of players they have been using. Chavez is best as a late inning replacement, Easley is a reserve infielder and Anderson is a PH deluxe. Taking them out of there element is showing there weaknesses. I also think Pascucci should be given a chance to come up and given a chance to play.

attgig Jul 01 2008 09:45 AM

I wish we would dump all the sub-mendoza line players we've been trying to use to fill in there. dump marlon. trot... you can make a case he needs more at bats to get his BA up, but i've seen enough of him. Bring up Chris Aguila, and let him start a few weeks, see how he does. Bring up Pascucci, and let him split some time with Delgado. As for Fernando, the kid's just 20 years old, he JUST got back from an injury... let him keep on going for a month or so in AA, and call him up if Aguila doesn't work out.

AG/DC Jul 01 2008 09:49 AM Re: Alou and the LF gang

mario25 wrote: I think that if Alou comes back and is out again within a few weeks (or games) it is time for Fernando Martinez to come up and inject some speed and young life into this team. He's been hurt, playing exactly four games since May 19. In AA. mario25 wrote: He cant do any worse than the tandem of players they have been using. Yes he can. ]Chavez is best as a late inning replacement, Easley is a reserve infielder and Anderson is a PH deluxe. Taking them out of there element is showing there weaknesses. All true-ish. mario25 wrote: I also think Pascucci should be given a chance to come up and given a chance to play. Definitely ahead of Martinez in my book. Fernandez, though, came back for a three game series at Connecticut this weekend while the Mets were figuring out who they were against the Yankees, and went 7-12 .583/.615/1.000 // 1.615. That pleases me, but I'm still not entertaining the idea of forcing him into the lineup.

attgig Jul 01 2008 09:56 AM

oh, and speaking of decent LF replacements... WHERE THE HELL IS PAGAN?!?!? wasn't he supposed to be back a month ago? I wish he didn't try to make that catch... *sigh*

smg58 Jul 01 2008 10:30 AM

Pascucci should have been up before now. How well does he have to hit, and how poorly do the alternatives? Once the Mets don't need 13 pitchers, I'd bring Pascucci up and promote Carp to take his place in New Orleans. I see no benefit to rushing Martinez. I'm glad he's swinging the bat well, but he's not going to help the 2008 team.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 01 2008 10:41 AM

Maybe they can coax Darryl Strawberry out of retirement. He's only four years older than Moises Alou.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 01 2008 10:45 AM

Pagan may have season ending surgery, papers said today. Aguila doesn't really have the track record of a guy worthy of a tryout for even a few weeks. I've also seen enough of Chavez as an everydayer, and Anderson, I think, is very close to being done for good.

Frayed Knot Jul 01 2008 10:58 AM

The problem with Endy is that he was slated to be a 5th OFer but has been shoved into the role of a 3rd and even 2nd for much of the season. I know virtually nothing about Pascucci including whether or not he can play the OF. I suspect the reason Phillips was promoted instead (insider info on the MFYs aside) is that he has played there before and that it was destined to be a short-term promotion so you bring up the guy you don't care about losing when he's dropped. Maybe this little move preserved Pascucci for later on. I didn't think F. Martinez was anything other than a 2010 option even before he missed 6 weeks of the season (again!).

attgig Jul 01 2008 11:33 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Aguila doesn't really have the track record of a guy worthy of a tryout for even a few weeks. yeah, but pascucci doesn't really either. And marlon's track record isn't relaly helping him... I really don't see a guy who's been pretty consistent at the AAA level doing any worse than marlon.... Maybe he's a AAAA guy, but that seems to be working for the Cardinals. IMO, we don't have a better alternative in LF that's in our farm system. We give the guy who most deserves it a legitimate chance, unless Omar's going to trade for another oft-injured OF'er....

AG/DC Jul 01 2008 11:44 AM

Paccucci led the PCL in homers last season, third in the affiliated minors. It was his fourth time hitting twenty homers in minor league ball. He not only played in the AAA All-Star Game, but was named "Star of Stars." He did a good job filling in for Benny Agbayani in Japan in 2005 but floundered in 2006. Looka that minor-league track record: http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=11018

attgig Jul 01 2008 11:52 AM

I think it's time to promote him to AAAA

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 01 2008 12:30 PM

attgig wrote: I think it's time to promote him to AAAA He was already [url=http://bbpdb.com/player/%E3%83%91%E3%82%B9%E3%82%AF%E3%83%81/]there[/url]. He had an 800 OPS.

seawolf17 Jul 01 2008 12:57 PM

Vince Coleman Firecracker wrote: ="attgig"]I think it's time to promote him to AAAA He was already [url=http://bbpdb.com/player/%E3%83%91%E3%82%B9%E3%82%AF%E3%83%81/]there[/url]. He had an 800 OPS. Yeah, but ベニー and 移籍した李に次ぐ第4の外国人扱いながら腐. He did have 8 月, 17日の西, and 28歳と若く.

Centerfield Jul 01 2008 01:25 PM

Let's watch the language. There are kids that read this board.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 01 2008 01:32 PM

Yeah! Somebody cover SteveRogers' eyes!

Vic Sage Jul 01 2008 02:30 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: ...I know virtually nothing about Pascucci including whether or not he can play the OF... Most of his career minor league games have been in the OF. However, I've read (somewhere) that he's considered an awful fielder. Still, I could live with that in LF, If he brought his career rate of a nearly .900 OPS to Shea.

Nymr83 Jul 01 2008 02:32 PM

it really wouldnt hurt to just give the guy a shot at this point, at least until alou gets back, whenever that is.

attgig Jul 01 2008 02:33 PM

whoever we bring up, I think it's time to cut Anderson. 1/2 a season with a BA below the mendoza line is enough pain.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 01 2008 02:46 PM

Last I heard, Alou may be back as early as Friday. And if so, hopefully he'll last the whole weekend. Since we currently have 13 pitchers, I would think that Alou would replace Muniz. I hope Omar finds a way to import a legitimate major league outfielder before July 31.

MFS62 Jul 01 2008 09:28 PM

I hear of Pasucci and think of Shelly Duncan. Why not see if he can provide a similar temporary lift, if not a permanent one? And, while I'm stretching, why not a Schoeneweis for Shelly Duncan deal? Later

AG/DC Jul 01 2008 10:05 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 01 2008 10:11 PM

Nymr83 wrote: it really wouldnt hurt to just give the guy a shot at this point, at least until alou gets back, whenever that is. Pascucci or Martinez?

AG/DC Jul 01 2008 10:07 PM

Nymr83 Jul 01 2008 10:17 PM

AG/DC wrote: ="Nymr83"]it really wouldnt hurt to just give the guy a shot at this point, at least until alou gets back, whenever that is. Pascucci or Martinez? Pascucci. Martinez is the youngest player at his level and injured alot, dont rush him.

Elster88 Jul 01 2008 10:20 PM

I don't see any point to Pascucci coming up and hitting .125. We have guys who can do that already. What the hell is all the fuss (not picking on you specifically Nymr) with a 29-year-old minor leaguer who has gotten half a cup of coffee? Have the organizations he's played for really misjudged him that badly? No they haven't. Does he have hidden talent that has never shown itself before that just needs a chance to blossom? No he doesn't. He's just the flavor of the month. At least give me a young "five tooler" to get all hot and bothered over before I get let down. Book it in the Prediction Archives. Pascucci will never be a solid contributor for this team. (I have no idea how to define "solid contributor".)

AG/DC Jul 01 2008 10:35 PM

Elster88 wrote: I don't see any point to Pascucci coming up and hitting .125. We have guys who can do that already. There's a damn good likelihood he'll do better. And a lesser chance that he'll do far better. Elster88 wrote: What the hell is all the fuss (not picking on you specifically Nymr) with a 29-year-old minor leaguer who has gotten half a cup of coffee? He's battering the ball in the Pacific Coast League, after battering it there last year, and our offense is wanting. Elster88 wrote: Have the organizations he's played for really misjudged him that badly? Only one way to find out. Elster88 wrote: No they haven't. How do you know? Elster88 wrote: Does he have hidden talent that has never shown itself before that just needs a chance to blossom? It has shown up, repeatedly. Elster88 wrote: No he doesn't. Again, how do you know. Elster88 wrote: He's just the flavor of the month. The guy has had many good months in his career, and his two most recent have been torrid ones at the highest minor league level. It makes me curious. "That’s what makes death so hard — unsatisfied curiosity – Beryl Markham Elster88 wrote: At least give me a young "five tooler" to get all hot and bothered over before I get let down. Fine, that's your preference. But we're looking for a role player here. And the risk is minimal. Elster88 wrote: Book it in the Prediction Archives. Pascucci will never be a solid contributor for this team. (I have no idea how to define "solid contributor".) I'll take a "useful contributor off the bench for a few."

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 02 2008 06:58 AM

]Have the organizations he's played for really misjudged him that badly? MLB GMs that Val has played under since getting to AAA: 2003: Omar Minaya 2004: Omar Minaya 2005: injured? 2006: Japan 2007: Larry Beinfest 2008: Pat Gillick, Omar Minaya Is it possible 3 GM's have failed to evaluate a non-toolsy player within their organization properly? I'd say it's very possible. Do I think Val is an all-star in waiting? No, of course not. He doesn't need to be. Here are the players' OPS+ he might replace in the lineup: Endy Chavez: 65 Damion Easley: 78 Marlon Anderson: 34 (side note- HOLY SHIT! 34???!!) Fernando Tatis: 60 Trot Nixon: 57 So, unless Val comes up and is more than 35% worse than the average major leaguer, he'd be a better hitter than four players on the current roster. This is a guy who has been hitting very well for a long time against the highest levels of competition outside the majors, and is absolutely raking this year, especially against lefties (.393/.507/.821). He's a guy who was only given one short stint in the majors when he was 25 and then given the dreaded AAAA label. (BTW, in those 72 ML PA's, he didn't hit but still had a 14% walk rate.) He's a typical victim of the scouts vs stats front office debate. Here's my prediction: give Val Pascucci 150 PA's in the majors this year, and he'll give you at least a 330 OBP and a 400 SLG, which would make him the 9th best hitter on the team. Against lefties, he'd hit better than Delgado. And who knows? He might be Jack Cust good.

AG/DC Jul 02 2008 07:08 AM

That's a far better answer than I gave. Mine was just short answers. Firecracker had a thesis and research and data and shit. And to add to that, the Phillies had the guy for a month.

Nymr83 Jul 02 2008 01:48 PM

Edgy and firecracker basically said it all for me. its not that i think V is going to be some great player, its just that he's tearing up the minors and that deserves a shot when the guys we have arent gettting it done. my "prediction" is that they won't give him that shot. if they do, i think he'll be decent but nothing memorable for a few months, but still an improvement over what anderson and chavez have been giving so far

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 02 2008 01:57 PM

For what it's worth, yesterday Alou hit a rehab HR off some 20 year old with a 5.5 ERA in the Gulf Coast League. He should be back with the big league team in a few days. When he gets hurt after that, who knows? 2 days? 3?

Vic Sage Jul 02 2008 02:26 PM

When Alou comes back, we should start an over/under thread on number of games or days until his next trip to the DL.

Farmer Ted Jul 02 2008 02:56 PM

I'd do an over/under on INNINGS it takes Alou to hit the Dead List.

attgig Jul 02 2008 03:15 PM

I'm going to use the same argument for Chris Aguila. I know he doesn't have the same AAA track record that Pascucci has, but he deserves a shot imo.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 02 2008 03:34 PM

FWIW, Pasciucci's numbers look something similar to Trot Nixon's in AAA, though he whiffs more. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving him a shot especially after we release Anderson.

attgig Jul 02 2008 03:39 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 02 2008 03:39 PM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: FWIW, Pasciucci's numbers look something similar to Trot Nixon's in AAA, though he whiffs more. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving him a shot especially after we release Anderson. Omar might give him a shot if he was 6 years older and was injured a bit more....

Nymr83 Jul 02 2008 03:39 PM

attgig wrote: I'm going to use the same argument for Chris Aguila. I know he doesn't have the same AAA track record that Pascucci has, but he deserves a shot imo. but thats why Pascucci dserves a shot first IMO

Rockin' Doc Jul 02 2008 05:23 PM

VC Firecracker - "For what it's worth, yesterday Alou hit a rehab HR off some 20 year old with a 5.5 ERA in the Gulf Coast League. He should be back with the big league team in a few days. When he gets hurt after that, who knows? 2 days? 3?" I'm amazed he didn't strain a hammy during his home run trot. Whatever he does, I hope he doesn't hit a double i the gap during his rehab or his comeback will likely be over before he joins the Mets.

AG/DC Jul 02 2008 08:26 PM

attgig wrote: Omar might give him a shot if he was 6 years older and was injured a bit more.... ="Rockin' Doc"]I'm amazed he didn't strain a hammy during his home run trot. Whatever he does, I hope he doesn't hit a double i the gap during his rehab or his comeback will likely be over before he joins the Mets. Let's not get too fatalistic and miserable here. (You know, Alou has a steal of home this year.) The Mets (a) have young players in several big roles, (b) could be in worse position this season (c) could still stand a contribution from the old gimps. I'm still going to advocate for recongnizing the opprtunity that Pascucci has learned.

Rockin' Doc Jul 02 2008 09:36 PM

Ah, come on , lighten up a little Edgy. I fully realize, as I'm quite sure attgig does as well, how good a hitter Alou still can be. We are just making light of Alou's well documented penchant for injury. His absence from the Mets line up (available 19 of 84 games)* has definitely hurt the offense. Let's just say that at this point I have learned not to count on Alou for this season, or heaven forbid, the future beyond 2008. I hope he can come back and contribute, but anything we get from him is now just a bonus in my eyes. Willie may have been the one to get fired, but it was Minaya that stocked this team with veterans with a history for breaking down (Alou, Martinez, and Hernandez), but that's a discussion for another thread. * Alou's availability in 2008 3/21/08 - 5/01/08 - Alou on DL (missed 26 games) 5/02/08 - 5/21/08 - Alou on active roster and available to play (available for 18 games) 5/22/08 - 6/09/08 - Alou on DL (missed 18 games) 6/10/08 - 6/10/08 - Alou on active roster and available to play (available 1 game) 6/11/08 - ??? - Alou on DL - Return expected soon (missed 21 games and counting)

AG/DC Jul 02 2008 09:45 PM

My issue remains not the injury issues --- we all understood the risk going in, got a discount for it, and didn't set the place a fire -- but rather the lack of, and lack of trust in, solid alternative options when he did go down.

Rockin' Doc Jul 02 2008 10:00 PM

I believe the Mets were counting on Angel Pagan and Endy Chavez to be the 4th and 5th outfielders. Which wasn't all that unreasonable to me. Unfortunately, not only did Alou go down, but Ryan Church has missed large chunks of playing time to injury. Pagan goes down and suddenly Endy is forced to be a regular. I agree with your earlier ascertion that Pascucci has earned a shot to help the Mets outfield situation. I would be fine with cutting loose Anderson and giving Pascucci a shot, but with Alou expected to return soon, I doubt he will get that chance.

Gwreck Jul 02 2008 10:59 PM

It's one thing to cut a journeyman who you're paying nothing to (your Trot Nixons, Brady Clarks, etc) but it's a bigger swallow to cut loose Anderson, who is under contract through 2009.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 04 2008 06:02 AM

Rubin: ]Pascucci not on Manuel's radar For all those minor-league followers clamoring for Valentino Pascucci to get called up from New Orleans, here’s some sobering news from Jerry Manuel: “I’ll be honest with, who is he?” Manuel asked with a laugh. Told he was a power hitter with the Zephyrs, Manuel added: “Okay. I apologize. I haven’t the slightest idea. Was he in spring training?”

AG/DC Jul 04 2008 07:21 AM

Ouch. I'm not surprised, but ouch.

Frayed Knot Jul 04 2008 07:28 AM

Of course it's not really Manual's job to keep on top of that. Now if OMAR gives you the same answer ...

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 09:21 AM

My thinking with Alou was originally that he was a good risk as long as you have his successor in place ready to step in. His job, then, is to hold off the succession as long as possible. In 2007, we had Milledge and Gomez on the cusp, and that was on target. This year, with a more mature version of both guys, this injury might have led to an exciting time. Instead, I've been tuning my radio to the retread blues.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 07 2008 10:28 AM

Everyone knew Alou was going to get hurt repeatedly this year. I also thought re-signing wasn't that bad since they'd have either Gomez or Milledge available to fill in for him. Trading both of them landed the Mets an everyday right fielder and an ace, but cost them any depth in the outfield. If Endy Chavez can continue to hit at replacement level (this is not a given), his 21 FRAR make him a passable 4th outfielder. If Alou is out but Church is playing, an outfield of Chavez (in right?), Beltran and Church isn't all that bad. The problem, of course, is that Church has also been out for a long time and no one knows when he'll be back for good. So, unless Alou comes back and stays back for a decent amount of time, the Mets need another outfielder. Marlon Anderson and Trot Nixon and Chris Aguila and Fernando Tatis (late-inning heroics aside) are not getting it done. I think Val Pascucci will hit in the majors, especially against lefties, but I think of him as a platoon partner at first base more than a left fielder (I suspect he will be completely unusable in the outfield). Since the Mets don't seem to have any major-league ready prospects, they'll probably have to reach outside of the organization to get one. I don't see the Mets being able to trade for someone like Xavier Nady without gutting an already poor minor league system, and I don't see them signing [url=http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Barry-Bonds_0.jpg]He who shall not be named[/url], but what about Kenny Lofton? He wouldn't be that expensive, he wouldn't cost you much of anything in terms of prospects (he's a type B free agent) and PECOTA projects him to hit .275/.346/.398; which isn't great but is a damn sight better than what we've been getting. If Alou comes back, he'd need days off, so I don't think Lofton would raise too much of a stink about going to the bench (I could be wrong about that, of course). Whaddya think? If someone's already mentioned this, I apologize. It just came to my mind today.

Gwreck Jul 07 2008 10:52 AM

I have been on the Kenny Lofton bandwagon for [url=http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=222510&highlight=kenny+lofton#222510]a while now[/url]. Also some Lofton discussion [url=http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=222190&highlight=kenny+lofton#222190]here[/url]. Also, in your suggestion regarding the outfield, if it is Beltran, Church and Chavez, why would you play Chavez in right? Church's defense is solidly above-average, but doesn't have the equal proficiency in the 3 OF positions that Chavez does.

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 10:56 AM

Chavez has the best arm, period. I'm sure Churchie could flourish in right given suffiecient motivation. That's a good defense.

Fman99 Jul 07 2008 10:59 AM

I don't see Lofton as a good fit. I think if you're going to bring in another outfielder it needs to be someone like Nady, who can hit for power in the middle of the lineup somewhere. Basically hit like Alou, either as a righty or a lefty. I don't see a real difference between Chavez/Anderson and Lofton. They are all glorified slap-hitters with minimal power. I'd rather see someone with some pop.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 07 2008 10:59 AM

Gwreck wrote: I have been on the Kenny Lofton bandwagon for [url=http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=222510&highlight=kenny+lofton#222510]a while now[/url]. Also, in your suggestion regarding the outfield, if it is Beltran, Church and Chavez, why would you play Chavez in right? Church's defense is solidly above-average, but doesn't have the equal proficiency in the 3 OF positions that Chavez does. I was just wondering whether Chavez's defense would have more value to the team in right than left. I don't know if it would or not. I figured someone would have mentioned Lofton already, I just didn't see it. Put me down in your camp, then.

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 11:09 AM

While you're looking backwards, is Milwaukee excited enough by Gabe Kapler/desperate enough for pitching to run an Ollie + prospect-for-Mike Cameron deal?

Fman99 Jul 07 2008 11:18 AM

AG/DC wrote: While you're looking backwards, is Milwaukee excited enough by Gabe Kapler/desperate enough for pitching to run an Ollie + prospect-for-Mike Cameron deal? I have to think Cammy's days of shifting to a corner OF to accomodate another player are all done. If he had his druthers, that is.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 07 2008 11:18 AM

AG/DC wrote: While you're looking backwards, is Milwaukee excited enough by Gabe Kapler/desperate enough for pitching to run an Ollie + prospect-for-Mike Cameron deal? Even though he's not going to stay as good as he's been in his last few starts, I don't think the Mets can afford to trade Oliver Perez. Pedro hasn't been very good and could end up on the DL at any moment and I thoroughly convinced El Duque will never play in the majors again. In the event of a Pedro injury and Perez trade, the rotation would be Santana/ Maine/ Pelfrey/ Armas/ Vargas, which is shakier than Philly's rotation.

Nymr83 Jul 07 2008 11:27 AM

Cameron isn't good enough to be worth trading Perez for in my opinion.

Rockin' Doc Jul 07 2008 11:28 AM

I always liked Mike Cameron and have grown tired of Oliver Perez and his Jekyll/Hyde act on the mound. Still, I agree with Firecracker that the Mets depth in the rotation is quite limited, which makes me leery to trade away a starter. Besides, after adding C. C. Sabbathia to their rotation, I doubt the Brewers are quite as desperate for starting pitching today as they were 48 hours ago.

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 11:32 AM

Well, I don't want to trade anybody, but what are you folks thinking of dealing?

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 07 2008 12:31 PM

AG/DC wrote: Well, I don't want to trade anybody, but what are you folks thinking of dealing? That's an easy one. We can trade that guy, you know? The one with all that value to the rest of the league, but is actually expendable to the Mets. That guy who will get us a useful return, but won't wind up biting us in the ass after he's traded. Umm, what was his name again?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 07 2008 12:38 PM

Billy F. Wagner. Ooops, I forgot, Dr. Omar gave him complete trade vaccination.

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 12:44 PM

Almost every poster in this thread is wearing a designation that projects the ghost of a bad trade past.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 07 2008 12:52 PM

AG/DC wrote: Almost every poster in this thread is wearing a designation that projects the ghost of a bad trade past. You think the Hampton trade was bad? Or were you excluding your own designation?

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 01:19 PM

No. (Thus, I used "almost.") Some peeps hate or hated the Hampton trade. I think they're mostly wrong. And the part they were/are right about, they're right for the wrong reasons. I was more noticing Thomson/Zambrano/Seaver/McGraw --- all dealt for too little or acquired for too much.

metsguyinmichigan Jul 07 2008 01:23 PM

I just read that Trot Nixon is on the DL. What happened to him? (My Tony Clark desnigation breaks up the bad trade thing.)

themetfairy Jul 07 2008 01:29 PM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I just read that Trot Nixon is on the DL. What happened to him? [url=http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080629&content_id=3027072&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb]Groin strain[/url].

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 01:34 PM

Madonna.

metsguyinmichigan Jul 07 2008 02:38 PM

AG/DC wrote: Madonna. Well, if you're gonna strain a groin, that would be the way to do it. It's the other icky things that follow you need to be worried about...

AG/DC Jul 08 2008 06:00 PM

Alou tonight for Bingo: five innings played and 1-3 vs. Norwich.

Nymr83 Jul 08 2008 06:03 PM

5 innings sounds good, take him out before he gets hurt.