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Man-Ram

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 26 2008 12:56 PM

Manny has apparently gotten under the skin of Boston Brass, pushing around their PR director and allegedly striking out on purpose and malingering. The Sox have played well while Ortiz has been out using Manny at DH and an excellent defensive outfield of Ellsbury, Crisp, and Drew. There is some speculation (isn't there always?) that Boston might look to trade Ramirez based on their unhappiness with his behavior as of late combined with Ortiz's return from injury. (I didn't put any sources in this paragraph, but a google news search will turn up plenty of articles) First, I'd like to say that I don't think Manny will be traded. The Sox have a good thing going with him and Ortiz in the middle of that lineup, and I don't see them messing with it, no matter how big a pain in the ass Manny becomes while angling for a new contract. That said, would anyone hypothetically be interested in trading for Ramirez? For me, it comes down to a few points: 1. What prospects will it cost? I could see dealing Fernando Martinez heads-up in this deal, but I would avoid adding anything else. 2. What kind of contract extension is he looking for? Right now, his current contract has two years left, both club-options for the same rate he signed for back in the Boras dream days of 2000. I could see guaranteeing those two years. If he wants a three year deal I'd walk away. 3. How badly is he undermining his team? Is he actually malingering? Did he really strike out on purpose? This is really bad stuff. From the outside it looks really, really, unforgiveably bad. Like, Sheffield intentionally throwing balls away bad. If the way it appears is how things actually are, there's no way I touch him. Then again, if things aren't really all that bad between him and the Sox, Boston wouldn't deal him in the first place. So what are ya left with? A great player who may or may not be intentionally sabatoging his team who might or might not be assuaged by a new, reasonable or unreasonable contract and who may or may not be available for a reasonable or unreasonable price. Just wanted to see what people think.

Nymr83 Jul 26 2008 01:01 PM

they're not trading away manny ramirez in the middle of a penant race. end of (non-)story.

seawolf17 Jul 26 2008 01:02 PM

There's zero chance the Sox trade Manny Ramirez in the thick of a pennant race, but that said, I'd take him on my team any day of the week.

AG/DC Jul 26 2008 01:26 PM

If (and I mean if) somebody's a big enough pain in the ass that a team with everything they lose is looking to divest...

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 26 2008 01:27 PM

Okay, so furthering the wild adventures in hypothetical land, would it make sense for all parties involved if there was a three-way trade that would send Fernando Martinez to Pittsburgh, Jason Bay to Boston and Manny Ramirez to Queens? 1. Why Boston would make the deal- Manny Ramirez is, allegedly, a huge pain in the ass. Jason Bay is nearly as productive when he's healthy without the "Manny being Manny" incidents. 2. Why Pittsburgh would make the deal- If they liked Tabata enough to trade away 2 big trading chips, wouldn't it follow that they'd be interested in a much better prospect? 3. Why the Mets would make the deal- to get more production out of left field, obviously. The better question is why the Mets would make this a three-way if they could land Bay for Martinez. Well, Ramirez is better, at least offensively, than Bay. He also doesn't have a history of injury the way Bay does. Does this trade make any sense? I'd say it might. I know it won't happen, but I don't know if I would, hypothetically, mind you, make this deal. Just some wild speculation for a lazy summer day.

Frayed Knot Jul 26 2008 04:18 PM

I don't want him ... there, I said it. He's coming up on the option years of his orignal FA deal which was 8x$20mil plus two [u:4fc763bf82]club[/u:4fc763bf82] option years at the same rate. The uncertainty of the Sox picking those years up is apparently (though who can tell?) one of the things that's upsetting Manny lately as rumors fly of faked injuries and the like. Any deal now - or say in the off-season - would probably at minimum need to have those years guaranteed or possibly tacked onto beyond just the two or risk a veto via Manny's 10+5 rights. His offense, though still real good, is off this year and last from what it was at his peak. That his defense, baserunning, attitude, and all-around game smarts are bad and getting worse isn't even up for debate, nor are those things suddenly going to get better as he moves into the NL, into a (much) larger LF, and heads towards age 40 (37 to begin next season). And then there's the question of what it would take to pry him away. [url=http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/07/26/now_hes_a_guaranteed_out/?page=1]Dan Shaugnessy weighs in[/url] on how bad it's become as even Manny's backers start heading for the hills.

AG/DC Jul 26 2008 04:29 PM

Didn't he turn a 100-year-old former player off of baseball?

Rockin' Doc Jul 26 2008 04:38 PM

The Mets are playing well right now, I don't think adding a malcontent to the team would be a good idea. Particularly when you look at depleting the Mets thin farm system in order to get him. I'm with Frayed Knot, no thanks.

AG/DC Jul 26 2008 06:13 PM

I don't think we're looking at a thin system right now.

Rockin' Doc Jul 26 2008 07:52 PM

The depth and strength of the Mets farm system. Goiing into this season, Baseball America had Fernando Martinez as the only Mets farm hand listed in their top 100 prospects. When baseball Prospectus listed the top farm systems for their prospects this spring, the Mets system was rated in the bottom half of all teams. The Mets appear to have had a good draft this summer, but major help from the farm system does not appear to be coming in the near future, unless Martinez is ready for 2009. Regardless of our farm systems current status, I would be opposed to trading Fernando Martinez or multiple other prospects for Manny Ramirez.

Fman99 Jul 27 2008 07:54 PM

I beg to differ. If it's a money dump and the Mets aren't forced to give up their bluest chippers I say go get him. The guy can still rake, and New York is a media circus no matter what is happening. I'd even say do it if the Mets were obligated to pick up the first option year, give Fartinez another year in the minors to stay healthy and hit. I am watching him tonight and he just smokes the ball in every direction.

Frayed Knot Jul 27 2008 08:05 PM

But Boston isn't going to be in money-dump mode - and especially not in the middle of a pennant race. It seems to me that either they either decide they can handle him for another 2 months and THEN cut ties by declining the option ... **OR** if they do want to trade him NOW they'll do it with the intention of getting as much as possible for him not just to get out from under approx 1/3 of 1 year's salary (a relatively small amount in the grand scheme of Manny-dom).

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 28 2008 04:18 AM

Yeah, Boston's not going to dump him for salary purposes. If they can't get the chips back that they want, they'll just live with him raking as their cleanup hitter the rest of the year and let him leave in the offseason.

AG/DC Jul 28 2008 12:47 PM

I'm going public with my private suspicion that Manny will end up in Philadelphia.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 28 2008 12:50 PM

AG/DC wrote: I'm going public with my private suspicion that Manny will end up in Philadelphia. Where would Burrell play? Fenway?

duan Jul 28 2008 12:53 PM

for Pat Burrell + prospect? Jason Werth would hardly be traded.

duan Jul 28 2008 12:55 PM

and Pat Burrell's having a monster year. Playing Werth in Center might be an option.

Frayed Knot Jul 28 2008 01:01 PM

The question at this point might be why Philly would do a straight Manny for Burrell deal. Any upgrade in offense over the remaining 50-game stretch would be minimal at best (Pat the Bat has the same OBP and better slugging to date) plus the headache factor would go through the roof and Manny is the one guy who could suddenly make their defense worse.

smg58 Jul 28 2008 01:16 PM

I can't see the Sox doing this without getting equivalent major league help in return. In other words, not Burrell and a prospect, but Burrell and somebody else who can help the team right now. Barring a third team getting involved (like the Pirates with Bay), I don't see how the Mets can pull this one off. But this is another one of those situations where it never hurts to ask. If the Red Sox can win twice with Manny, I don't see how he'd hurt us more than he'd help. Then again, I'd put my money against them dealing somebody they know they can win with for a lesser player or players.

AG/DC Jul 28 2008 01:42 PM

I don't know how it would shake out. I just like the thought of the Mets pushing Phillie's panic button. It's not like the city of Philadelphia has some sort of civic ban and disgruntled grouches.

metsguyinmichigan Jul 28 2008 02:48 PM

Can the Phillies even take on ManRam's outrageous contract? Seems out of character for them.

AG/DC Jul 28 2008 02:49 PM

Just being crazy. I'm really enjoying that the Mets victory tour is occuring just in time to seriously affect the thinking of GMs staying up nights worrying about how to align their team's stance at the trading deadline. I mean, I'm enjoying so much about this, but that's a nice particular.

Frayed Knot Jul 28 2008 03:54 PM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Can the Phillies even take on ManRam's outrageous contract? Seems out of character for them. It's only 1/3 of one season (approx $7mil) so it's not THAT outrageous. Any team COULD take that on if they thought it was the difference. There's no obligation to assume beyond this season.

Centerfield Jul 28 2008 04:26 PM

The Red Sox want equal value in return. So the best you can hope for by trading for Ramirez is standing still. He's not going to be traded.

soupcan Jul 30 2008 08:10 AM

These rumors won't die. People are saying Manny to the Phillies is quite possible with Burrell going the other way. I don't know why Phillie would make that deal.

AG/DC Jul 30 2008 08:13 AM

Because somebody googled and found my acid-drenched prediction. Isn't the interweb excellent?

soupcan Jul 30 2008 08:16 AM

Well, I hope they do it. As Frayed Knot said, Ramirez and Burrell are having similar years. The Phils are 1/2 game out. If they want to mess with their chemistry without adding a significant upgrade over Burrell (so far this season), then more power to them.

duan Jul 30 2008 08:51 AM

I wouldn't want a totally energised Manny Ramirez 99 miles down the road in Philly

seawolf17 Jul 30 2008 08:59 AM

I look forward to Dallas Green's head exploding.

soupcan Jul 30 2008 09:25 AM

duan wrote: I wouldn't want a totally energised Manny Ramirez 99 miles down the road in Philly I see what you're saying but Manny's been off his game so far this year (for Manny). He couldn't do any more damage to the Mets head-to-head than Burrell does anyway. And Burrell is 31 while Manny is 36. You have to think that Manny would want at least one of his option years guaranteed (at $20M) and that may hamper the Phils making moves down the road. I look at it as an even trade with the added benefit of the whacko factor being infused into the Phillie clubhouse. I don't think it would improve the Phillies and has the potential to mess with the chemistry of a winning ballclub. I'm not outright advocating it, but it wouldn't really worry me.

Frayed Knot Jul 30 2008 02:08 PM

Jon Heyman: Philly, Dodgers and [u:e64652b1c8]Florida[/u:e64652b1c8] are in on the Manny bidding. Either Boston is serious about trading him or wants to make it appear that they are. No indication that the Mets are in on talks.

metirish Jul 30 2008 02:23 PM

I guess this is subject to change hourly. ] Ramirez will likely stay in Boston...for now The possiblity of Boston Red Sox outfielder Manny Ramirez being traded is slowly deteriorating, ESPN's Jayson Stark writes. The four teams that had reportedly been interested in Ramirez, the Philadelphia Phillies, New York Mets, Los Angeles Dodgers and Arizona Diamondbacks have all denied having any such desire for him. It appears he will be staying with the Sox until this season is out but the club is not expected to pick up his option for 2009.

Frayed Knot Jul 30 2008 05:12 PM

And now 'Baseball Prospectus' chimes in with: Multiple baseball sources say the Red Sox are on the verge of sending disgrunted left fielder Manny Ramirez to the Marlins in a trade for a package of three players that includes low Class A Greensboro outfielder Mike Stanton, an 18-year-old who is hitting .275/.351/.569 with 26 home runs in 96 games. I'd be shocked if this is accurate, particularly if it's only for minor leaguers. If Boston is REALLY sick of Manny and are intent on dealing him I can't see them NOT getting at least one major leaguer back to take his place for now, like Jeremy Hermida maybe.

OlerudOwned Jul 30 2008 06:12 PM

="Frayed Knot"]And now 'Baseball Prospectus' chimes in with: Multiple baseball sources say the Red Sox are on the verge of sending disgrunted left fielder Manny Ramirez to the Marlins in a trade for a package of three players that includes low Class A Greensboro outfielder Mike Stanton, an 18-year-old who is hitting .275/.351/.569 with 26 home runs in 96 games. I'd be shocked if this is accurate, particularly if it's only for minor leaguers. If Boston is REALLY sick of Manny and are intent on dealing him I can't see them NOT getting at least one major leaguer back to take his place for now, like Jeremy Hermida maybe. ESPN was a-speculatin' that Boston would try to turn Stanton over to Pittsburgh for Bay.

metirish Jul 30 2008 06:25 PM

Manny sure likes to yap. ] "They haven't asked me for anything," Ramirez told ESPNdeportes.com's Enrique Rojas on the phone from Fenway Park before the Red Sox-Angels matchup on Wednesday night. "The Red Sox don't deserve a player like me," Ramirez said. "During my years here I've seen how they [the Red Sox] have mistreated other great players when they didn't want them to try to turn the fans against them. "The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me. Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy," Ramirez added. "I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don't deserve me. I'm not talking about money. Mental peace has no price and I don't have peace here." Dude they gave you a huge contract , wtf? mistreating you?

Frayed Knot Jul 30 2008 07:27 PM

]ESPN was a-speculatin' that Boston would try to turn Stanton over to Pittsburgh for Bay. That makes sense; deal Manny for several prospects then keep some of those for yourself and spin off others to get yourself a Manny replacement. Bay obviously isn't Manny but he'll do for 50 games. There's just no way Boston's going to deal him for futures only when they're 2 games out with 1/3 of the season to go as if the goal in all this is some kind of salary dump. Will Carroll of BP is thinking along the same lines: I’m hearing that a multi-team deal involving Jason Bay and the Florida Marlins is in the “final stages.” This could involve the previously in-place dealings involving Manny Ramirez as reported by BP’s John Perrotto. Joe Frisaro of MLB.com thinks that Bay could end up in Boston, Jeremy Hermida in Pittsburgh, and prospects flying every which way. My sources agree, though I will update these as details become clearer.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 30 2008 07:56 PM

Looks like Boston will get Bay, Florida will get Ramirez, Pittsburgh will get Hermida

Rockin' Doc Jul 30 2008 08:19 PM

Looks like Pittsburgh gets screwed.

OlerudOwned Jul 30 2008 08:26 PM

Rockin' Doc wrote: Looks like Pittsburgh gets screwed. Pittsburgh is supposedly getting Hermida and 3 prospects, which might actually make them come out ahead in this deal. Hermida is a damn talented, young, cheap player with major league experience and, when you consider the depth and quality of the players in Florida's and Boston's organizations, there's a good chance they'll get some other keepers.

Frayed Knot Jul 30 2008 08:33 PM

]Looks like Pittsburgh gets screwed I dunno 'bout that, I like Hermida. He was considered the best hitting prospect the Marlins produced aside from Miguel Cabrera. His main problem has been staying on the field but, assuming whatever's been ailing him is now in the past, I might like him over Bay. And especially so if you're Pittsburgh. He's only 24 is and would be under club control for another 3 years after this one. Bay, on the other hand, turns 30 this winter and can go FA after 2009. For Pitt that's exactly the kind of high-upside guy you've got to take a chance on.

Frayed Knot Jul 30 2008 08:45 PM

2006-2008 combined Bay - 1,496 ABs; .271/.365/.490 - 78 HRs Hermida - 1,110; .269/.349/.448 - 38 HRs Manny - 1,294; .306/.408/.548 - 75 HRs Neither one of them is Manny obviously, and Hermida falls short of both in the power dept. But when you consider not only the injury interuptions but that those [u:1f1fc4f54b]are his first three seasons in MLB[/u:1f1fc4f54b] (late 2005 call-up) he'd look good in just about anyone's OF.

Nymr83 Jul 30 2008 08:57 PM

]It's only 1/3 of one season (approx $7mil) so it's not THAT outrageous. Any team COULD take that on if they thought it was the difference. There's no obligation to assume beyond this season. well, manny has 10/5 rights and there are 2 club options worth 20 million each, i could certainly see him demanding that at least one if not both be execised as a condition of his accepting a deal.

AG/DC Jul 30 2008 09:01 PM

Sounds like you're not gobbling up the line of "I'm not talking about money. Mental peace has no price and I don't have peace here."

Nymr83 Jul 30 2008 10:44 PM

sorry, but thats manny-speak for "its all about the dough, if boston would show me some resoect and exercise both options now i'd have peace, at least until i'm whining again next july like i do every year"

AG/DC Jul 31 2008 05:39 AM

No need to apologize to me.

Frayed Knot Jul 31 2008 06:22 AM

I actually think this began by Manny getting scared that Boston WAS going to pick up his option(s) -- and do so only one year at a time and only at the club's convenience. It's gone beyond that now as things have crumbled into name-calling nonsense and threats, but I think that may be what started this insecurity he seems to have about the whole deal. Manny probably sees this time-frame (he'll turn 37 next spring) as his best shot at getting one last long-term contract - say 4 to 5 years - rather than being locked into a deal that pays him well but also keeps him from being a FA until he hits age 38 or 39 and over which he has no control. And even if a new deal doesn't net him the same per-year dollars he's hauling in now he can work it so he's getting paid at least through birthday #40. Hey, it worked for ARod.

soupcan Jul 31 2008 11:27 AM

="Frayed Knot"]I actually think this began by Manny getting scared that Boston WAS going to pick up his option(s) -- and do so only one year at a time and only at the club's convenience. It's gone beyond that now as things have crumbled into name-calling nonsense and threats, but I think that may be what started this insecurity he seems to have about the whole deal. Manny probably sees this time-frame (he'll turn 37 next spring) as his best shot at getting one last long-term contract - say 4 to 5 years - rather than being locked into a deal that pays him well but also keeps him from being a FA until he hits age 38 or 39 and over which he has no control. And even if a new deal doesn't net him the same per-year dollars he's hauling in now he can work it so he's getting paid at least through birthday #40. Hey, it worked for ARod. Frayed Knot-strodomus! Report: Manny will agree to a trade to Florida IF the team will cancel the $20 million club option.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 31 2008 11:49 AM

Dave Cameron at [url=http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-manny-hermida-deal/]FanGraphs[/url] says that getting Ramirez might actually make the Marlins worse.

Nymr83 Jul 31 2008 11:58 AM

this trade, for florida, might be about more than upgrading the team on the field. Mannny Ramirez has name value and he has a huge contract, maybe management wants to be seen adding, rather than subtracting, this type of guy for once.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 31 2008 12:00 PM

He could double their attendance and the Marlins would still have 30,000 empty seats at each game.

Nymr83 Jul 31 2008 12:04 PM

i wouldn't attend games either in that heat and humidity at an outdoor stadium. there was a good reason that major league baseball played down there in the spring and not the summer before the marlin-expansion. but this could be about more than immediate attendance- merchandise, tv ratings, and just a general feeling in the fans that management has some willingness to pay to win when the timing is right.

Frayed Knot Jul 31 2008 12:54 PM

The three-way Manny-Pitt-Florida deal "almost dead" (Gammons). Florida seems to want Boston to give them several millions more than Manny is actually owed for the rest of the season. Boston still talking to others (Dodgers?) and, like a soap opera, until someone produces a dead body the resurrection is always as close as the next episode.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 31 2008 01:03 PM

This whole Manny story is playing out of some ancient script where Boston's best athlete has to tangle with the press, his team, and have his career there end badly.

Farmer Ted Jul 31 2008 02:22 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 31 2008 02:23 PM

CNNSi says Manny and Torre to have man-love together in LA. Specifically Heyman calling it at 4:21 pm.

G-Fafif Jul 31 2008 02:23 PM

Farmer Ted wrote: CNNSi says Manny and Torre to have man-love together in LA. Heyman reports it. That dude's got an edge!

metirish Jul 31 2008 02:28 PM

Boston.com has crashed...I think

G-Fafif Jul 31 2008 02:30 PM

NESN, says FAN, says Jason Bay is somehow involved...

metsguyinmichigan Jul 31 2008 02:31 PM

Goes to LA, Bay to Boston

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 31 2008 02:33 PM

I imagine Kemp is involved, since LA would never sit still while a cheap youngster is doing the job an expensive veteran could do.

Frayed Knot Jul 31 2008 02:34 PM

So Jay Ray Bay might go to the Bay State?

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 31 2008 02:36 PM

Jay Ray Bay to MA: A-OK!

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 31 2008 02:38 PM

[url=http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/31/ramirez-traded-to-the-dodgers/]The Times[/url] is also reporting the deal.

G-Fafif Jul 31 2008 02:39 PM

Colonial historians are already pushing for the nickname Massachusetts Bay.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 31 2008 02:43 PM

The Pirates will receive Andy LaRoche and right-hander Bryan Morris from the Dodgers and outfielder Damien Moss and releiver Craig Hansen from the Red Sox, sez Ken Rosenthal.

Vic Sage Jul 31 2008 02:47 PM

Jon Heyman sez: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/07/31/manny.sweepstakes/index.html?eref=T1 Ramirez signed off on the deal, contingent upon the two $20-million team options for 2009 and '10 being dropped, making him a FA after the season. Pittsburgh gets Craign Hansen and Brandon Moss (from Boston), as well as third baseman Andy LaRoche (Dodgers) and a fourth minor leaguer from LA who has yet to be confirmed.(Bryan Morris?) The Red Sox are paying the $7 million remaining on Ramirez's $20 million salary for this year.

bmfc1 Jul 31 2008 02:53 PM

The Mets couldn't have matched LaRoche and a minor-minor leaguer?

Vic Sage Jul 31 2008 02:53 PM

so let me get this straight: the BoSox trade Manny, Hansen and a prospect, plus they pay remaining $7m of Manny's salary... for Jason Bay? that deal sux for sox. Now I'm annoyed.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 31 2008 03:00 PM

bmfc1 wrote: The Mets couldn't have matched LaRoche and a minor-minor leaguer? Nope. The Mets don't have anyone like LaRoche- a major league-ready, skill defensive position playing, high upside prospect.

attgig Jul 31 2008 03:56 PM

now the pirates have two A. LaRoche's what's the back of the uni's gonna look like? LaRoche 1 & LaRoche 2? =) I wonder if this LaRoche is going to disappear off the face of the earth once he gets to the burgh like the other LaRoche did...

holychicken Jul 31 2008 04:01 PM

attgig wrote: now the pirates have two A. LaRoche's what's the back of the uni's gonna look like? LaRoche 1 & LaRoche 2? =) I wonder if this LaRoche is going to disappear off the face of the earth once he gets to the burgh like the other LaRoche did... Better yet, how are they going to do their Schaefer scoring with Grimm losing his mind?

AG/DC Jul 31 2008 04:08 PM

Most sports precendent does it like this: ADAM LAROCHE 17

AG/DC Jul 31 2008 04:10 PM

The LA Rams' Youngbloods did that, but they also used second letters in other years:

attgig Jul 31 2008 04:18 PM

or maybe they go the way of Ichiro, and put down Andy and Adam on their backs.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 31 2008 04:24 PM

Or just let two guys have the same name on their backs, like the Mets do with REYES and REYES. If I remember correctly, in the 1980's Davey Johnson was JOHNSON and HoJo was H. JOHNSON.

apmorris Jul 31 2008 05:13 PM

Like Andruw Jones, Manny will fall into "whatever happened to that guy?" territory and wind up sitting on the DL for long stretches (and eat his way out of baseball).

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 31 2008 06:01 PM

apmorris wrote: Like Andruw Jones, Manny will fall into "whatever happened to that guy?" territory and wind up sitting on the DL for long stretches (and eat his way out of baseball). Yeah, I'm gonna have to sort of disagree here. Andruw Jones was never the hitter Manny is. Jones' career .339 OBP and .490 SLG isn't in the same ball park as Manny's .409/.590. Jones was a comparable player when he was playing stellar centerfield, but Manny's been head and shoulders above him for a long time now. If Manny dropped as far as Andruw Jones has dropped, he'd still be nearly as good a hitter as Jones' career averages.

metsmarathon Jul 31 2008 08:03 PM

manny's eqa this year is 0.319; bay's is 0.325 manny's ops+ is 140; bay's is 135 manny's zone rating is 0.744; bay's is 0.806 not that i know much about their farm system and who they gave up, but i don't think boston weakened themselves nearly as much as do the radio guys (who all seem to think that the sawx abdicated the al east to the yankees)

soupcan Jul 31 2008 08:09 PM

I would think Dodger fans would be over the moon about this deal but after checking the reaction on the dodgerblues forum its really mixed and I think even slanted toward a thumbs down. They're whining about giving up LaRoche. Odd.

Frayed Knot Jul 31 2008 08:16 PM

BA's look at Pitt's new babies: - Injuries have sidetracked the 24-year-old Andy LaRoche, who is the brother of Pirates first baseman Adam, and he's managed to hit just .217/.348/.316 in 152 big league at-bats with the Dodgers spread over this season and last. An accomplished Triple-A hitter (.310/.412/.544 in 590 at-bats where he's spent significant time in each of the past three seasons. LaRoche's most positive attributes are advanced pitch recognition and a good feel for hitting, as he lets the ball travel deep and has the bat speed to catch up to good fastballs. He's got average power for third base, where he is a below-average defender. - Craig Hansen, 24, was a first-round pick out of St. John's in 2005, and he signed the richest draft deal in Red Sox history, a $4 million major league contract. Promoted to the majors shortly after his signing, Hansen struggled with his delivery and his command for much of 2006 and 2007. He has made strides this year, but his lack of consistent command continues to undermine his mid-90s fastball and his hard slider. Hansen has been part of a struggling Boston bullpen, and has gone 1-3, 5.58 in 32 big league games this year. Opponents are hitting .240 with two homers against him, while his strikeout-to-walk ratio is just 25-to-23 in 31 innings. - Bryan Morris may be the most intriguing prospect picked up by the Pirates at the 2008 trade deadline. The 21-year-old RHP was just hitting his stride in July with low Class A Great Lakes, after missing the 2007 season to Tommy John surgery. The Dodgers' 1st-round pick in 2006 (26th overall), Morris was 2-4, 3.20 with 72 strikeouts, 31 walks and five home runs allowed in 82 innings for the Loons. He runs his fastball up to 94-96 mph and complements it with a plus hammer curveball. He had also shown a feel for an 86-88 mph power changeup that features hard downer movement. - Brandon Moss, 24, was an 8th-round pick out of a Georgia high school in 2002. The MVP of the South Atlantic League in 2004 and the Eastern League playoffs in 2006, he has the upside of a solid regular but was unlikely to get the opportunity to show that in Boston. In 176 games for Triple-A Pawtucket, the lefthanded batter had hit .282/.359/.485. His strong hands and the leverage in his swing give him the ability to hit for power and average, though he can fall into ruts when he becomes too homer-conscious. Though a slightly below-average runner, he covers enough ground and has the arm strength for right field. Moss has career .291/.348/.456 averages with two homers and 12 RBIs in 103 at-bats over 49 big league games.

Frayed Knot Aug 01 2008 08:52 AM

[url=http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7889]Innuresting take[/url] on the outcome of the whole Manny deal by BP's Joe Sheehan

metirish Aug 01 2008 09:33 AM

Great article , a very interesting take indeed and he puts the boot into Dodger management and questions Joe Torre in regards to Pierre.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Aug 01 2008 09:41 AM

[url=http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7888]Christina Kahrl[/url] also dislikes the move for LA: ]The nicest way to look at this move is that it gives the Dodgers a financial no-cost upgrade to an outfield hobbled by Ned Colletti's consecutive center-field mistakes; put Manny in left, reduce Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre to expensive spectators, and roll on to the division title. A sensible plan, no? It's possible, probable even, and benching Jones might even represent a bit of wish fulfillment mixed with a good dose of reaction formation. Even so, somehow I can't shake the feeling that they'll struggle to bench Pierre for being exactly what you should expect him to be, and that the speedster will filch a few starts from Andre Ethier and Matt Kemp, on the days when he isn't starting for Ramirez because the big bopper's got an owie to massage or a sulky jag to ride out. That aside, it's an obvious improvement to a lineup that needed the help, although the problem is whether or not this means that the Dodgers will wind up picking up the 2009 or 2010 options. If they have to or had to to get his Mannyness to agree to the trade, a deal that doesn't cost them anything now financially will end up becoming a bit of a millstone, since they'll be stuck with an increasingly fragile lead-gloved old man in left, and if that's what they wanted for their stretch run, why not just keep LaRoche and sign Barry Bonds? It's worth asking that question, because while the immediate financial expense is negligible, where this deal costs the Dodgers right now is in talent, talent that they need now, and will need far into the future. LaRoche could wind up being the best bet to be the Pirates' token All-Star for the next five or six years, and not simply because a Pirate has to go, but because there are few better bets to star at the hot corner in the years to come. Having dealt him, future Dodgers squads will have to find their third baseman on the free-agent market—with the man who gave you Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre doing the shopping—lest they have to return to Blake DeWitt. Neither of those things have as much to offer a team as LaRoche, so in terms of measuring the full cost of what adding Manny does for this team, you've got to throw that onto the scale; signing Barry Bonds would not have cost them Andy LaRoche, and it would have involved no more (or less) of a distraction than Manny being Manny will, no matter how star-struck and craven the local media may be during its first exposure to the man. LaRoche was expensive enough, but Morris isn't chopped liver; although less developed, having pitched in Low-A after missing all of 2007 after Tommy John surgery, he's also talented enough to come back to haunt them.

apmorris Aug 01 2008 11:22 AM

Vince Coleman Firecracker wrote: ="apmorris"]Like Andruw Jones, Manny will fall into "whatever happened to that guy?" territory and wind up sitting on the DL for long stretches (and eat his way out of baseball). Yeah, I'm gonna have to sort of disagree here. Andruw Jones was never the hitter Manny is. Jones' career .339 OBP and .490 SLG isn't in the same ball park as Manny's .409/.590. Jones was a comparable player when he was playing stellar centerfield, but Manny's been head and shoulders above him for a long time now. If Manny dropped as far as Andruw Jones has dropped, he'd still be nearly as good a hitter as Jones' career averages. I didn't mean to compare Jones and Manny stats-wise or even player status-wise, it was more of a "he can come out here (I'm in LA), lay low, get fat, get hurt, collect his pension, and no one will notice" statement. Believe me, Dodger fan doesn't even know Jones and Nomar are ON his team. Its friggin pathetic. Maybe after a year and a half in the Twilight Zone that is Sports in LA - he'll go DH in the AL. .

Frayed Knot Aug 01 2008 12:40 PM

"Maybe after a year and a half in the Twilight Zone that is Sports in LA - he'll go DH in the AL. " It won't take that long. Manny's contract ends after this season and so does his stint with the Dodgers. btw, I heard a brief snippet of an interview with Pirates GM Neil Humtington this morning -- and his answer as to what time the deal got completed yesterday he answered; "3:59"

apmorris Aug 01 2008 08:57 PM

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Rockin' Doc Aug 01 2008 09:11 PM

Jason Bay went 1-3 with a triple and 2 walks in his Red Sox debut. He scored both of the Red Sox runs in their 2-1 victory over Oakland. Junior had a pair of RBI singles, a walk, and scored a run in the White Sox 4-2 victory over the Royals.

Elster88 Aug 02 2008 10:59 AM

Nymr83 wrote: they're not trading away manny ramirez in the middle of a penant race. end of (non-)story. Valadiusesque

apmorris Aug 02 2008 01:28 PM

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