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Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

batmagadanleadoff Oct 10 2013 01:09 PM

Digging out those old Jerry Grote game videos for studying might demonstrate that the grumpy one was the greatest Mets catcher ever, and perhaps the main reason why in Grote's prime, his average to weak hitting Mets competed for the division every single season. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/927 ... ina-others * * Grote-free thought provoking article

Lefty Specialist Oct 10 2013 02:09 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

No.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 10 2013 08:38 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

No comment. [Scoffs] [Lifts leg, farts]

Zvon Oct 10 2013 10:48 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Is this an alt reality where Piazza was never a Met? Mikes bat trumps Jerrys defense. Defensively, yes, I think so. And he was grumpy. I didn't like him cause he got all grumpy on me once. He told me to fuck off. I was like 11 or 12. I thought :what a dick! I should have said that. I would now. But then I just looked like a crushed little kid. But he was probably one of the best catchers of his time, defensively, Met or no. And I've read what you guys have said about his hitting but lemme tell ya, he was clutch. In the biggest spot imaginable he would get his bat on the ball. He would drive it thru a gap. When we really needed a big hit in a close game from the bottom of the lineup, I didn't mind seeing him up at all. He was never considered by anybody to be a hole in the lineup. That Met team knew to make up for his offensive shortcomings in other areas, because what he brought defensively, really, was priceless.

RealityChuck Oct 11 2013 08:00 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

In a team with two Hall of Famers in the category, I think not. But Grote was a great catcher. Defensively, he was excellent, and the success of Mets pitchers in that era had much to do with his game calling (and Rube Walker's coaching). His hitting was adequate, but this was a time (like today) that a catcher hitting .250 was a major asset to a team. Obscure fact: Grote still holds the major league record for consecutive putouts by a catcher. Any serious Mets fan knows when he did it.

Lefty Specialist Oct 11 2013 08:13 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Seaver's 10 consecutive strikeouts probably have something to do with it. Either that, or there were a crapload of pop-ups behind the plate one day.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2013 09:06 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Jeff and I discussed it, we're going with Stoins!

Mets – Willets Point Oct 11 2013 09:17 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Grote to the max!

metirish Oct 11 2013 09:38 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I dunno, he didn't have Jason Phillips speed.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2013 09:40 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I voted for Duffy, I never get my way!

themetfairy Oct 11 2013 09:44 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Kong76 wrote: I voted for Duffy, I never get my way! We need to bring back the Jeff Wilpon Through History thread....

batmagadanleadoff Oct 11 2013 10:01 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I'm not taking any position here ... I simply posted the framing article link for discussion. Still, if the author's premise is credible ... if Jose Molina is worth more runs to his team than Giancarlo Stanton ... then the subject, the idea that Grote might be the Mets greatest catcher isn't so easily dismissable. Johnny Bench is still the benchmark for defensive catchers (benchmark! lol, guffaw, guffaw, rotflmao) and there's still a faction, a clique, a posse, whatever, that claims that Grote was even better than Bench behind the plate. BTW, in 1973, Grote was on the disabled list for about two months. The 1973 82-79 Mets (.509 W-L pct.) were 21-33 during Grote's inactive stint, and 61-46 otherwise (.570). That .570 W-L pct. prorates to 92 wins over 162 games. FWIW. Perhaps a new baseball paradigm is in order where the catcher is as valuable as an NFL quarterback. Sheesh, I might have to re-assess Gary Carter's legacy, who I think is historically, the most overrated Met and the Derek Jeter of the franchise.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2013 10:53 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Oh, the camera is rolling Michael. Smile! Jeff thinks he still 9 years old. He voted for Duffy because that was his favorite F-Troop character growing up.

dinosaur jesus Oct 11 2013 11:12 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Grote is from San Antonio, just like my father, and about the same age. So yes, in my book he's the greatest. Jerry Grote, my red-ass surrogate dad.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2013 12:18 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Cool picture! Makes me want a yoohoo!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 11 2013 12:38 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Don't get me wrong-- I'm not fart noise-ing on the entire idea, just the potential conclusion. I mean, I get what things like UZR and Plus/Minus actually measure, even if the exact how is a little beyond my ken; I need a little more under-the-hood information before I can weight the matter properly.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2013 01:27 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Someone needs a yoohoo!

batmagadanleadoff Oct 11 2013 05:48 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 11 2013 05:51 PM

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Don't get me wrong-- I'm not fart noise-ing on the entire idea, just the potential conclusion. I mean, I get what things like UZR and Plus/Minus actually measure, even if the exact how is a little beyond my ken; I need a little more under-the-hood information before I can weight the matter properly. Well yeah ... that's the whole point. One can accept the f/x technology and its practically infallible ability to determine whether a pitch is a ball or a strike. I think you yourself have been linking to that data for a few years, now. But from there, is it a leap of faith to believe some of the findings ... that a catcher can influence whether a ball is called a strike or a strike called a ball, and to the extent cited in the article? The effects of pitch framing aren't new. An umpire can't see the whole plate because the catcher blocks his view. This was always known, going back to the 19th century. But those findings .. that's a whole nuther animal. Of course, even so, when it comes to speculating whether f/x technology can prove whether or not Grote was the best Mets catcher, we're clearly in who would win a footrace between Batman and Aquaman territory, because we'll never know for sure.

d'Kong76 Oct 13 2013 07:55 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

dgwphotography Oct 14 2013 12:34 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Piazza's bat trumps Grote's defense. That having been said, Grote was one of the most underrated catchers in our time. Bench himself said that if he were on the same team with Grote, he (Bench) would have been playing at third.

G-Fafif Oct 14 2013 01:13 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I don't remember any Met pitcher ever going out of his way to praise Piazza for raising their game. Not saying none ever did (or that Piazza didn't), I just don't remember it. (They certainly praised his hitting on their behalf -- Leiter did so in his videotaped piece for the Piazza ceremonies two weeks ago.) Seaver went out of his way in his Cooperstown induction speech to thank his three primary catchers: Grote, Bench and Fisk. He knew and we know there's nothing incidental about that grouping whereas I'm guessing the non-Mets fan might think "two Hall of Famers and who?" It's a great question as regards what catchers do and how much they hit and what it all means. X Factor about Piazza, to my thinking at least, is he not only hit incredibly well for a catcher but he made up for the lack of slugging that the Mets weren't getting from their alleged power positions in left and right.

Vic Sage Oct 15 2013 09:34 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Top 10 Mets Catchers (games): All-stars: 1. Mike Piazza (826) 2. Jerry Grote (1176) 3. Gary Carter (566) 4. Todd Hundley (745) 5. John Stearns (698) Not all-stars: 6. Ron Hodges (446) 7. Paul Lo Duca (231) 8. Todd Pratt (206) 9. Mackey Sasser (261) 10. Chris Cannizzaro (236) other catchers with over 162g: Duffy Dyer 326 Josh Thole 279 Ramon Castro 256 Vance Wilson 255 Charlie O'Brien 224 Barry Lyons 183 Alex Treviño 179 Brian Schneider 166

batmagadanleadoff Oct 15 2013 09:41 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Top 10 Mets Catchers (games): All-stars: 1. Mike Piazza (826) 2. Jerry Grote (1176) 3. Gary Carter (566) 4. Todd Hundley (745) 5. John Stearns (698) Not all-stars: 6. Ron Hodges (446) 7. Paul Lo Duca (231) 8. Todd Pratt (206) 9. Mackey Sasser (261) 10. Chris Cannizzaro (236) other catchers with over 162g: Duffy Dyer 326 Josh Thole 279 Ramon Castro 256 Vance Wilson 255 Charlie O'Brien 224 Barry Lyons 183 Alex Treviño 179 Brian Schneider 166 Actually, Lo Duca was an all-star. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Major ... -Star_Game

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 15 2013 09:47 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Well, yeah... nominally.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 15 2013 09:52 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Well, yeah... nominally. More deserving than Stearns. Lo Duca deserved it in 2006. It was his career season, at not a bad one at that. Too bad SmallBalls had him squaring around to bunt every single time Reyes got on base, even though the best middle of the order in baseball was next.

Edgy MD Oct 15 2013 09:57 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

The guy had seven sacs and 39 doubles (a record pace, if prorated to a non-catcher-game-load). He must've swing some time.

Vic Sage Oct 15 2013 10:46 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Actually, Lo Duca was an all-star. My bad. I remembered him as an all-star for LA and FL, but forgot about that one in NY.

Vic Sage Oct 15 2013 10:56 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Well, yeah... nominally. More deserving than Stearns. Lo Duca deserved it in 2006. It was his career season, at not a bad one at that... Stearns was an all-star in his own right, 4 times actually (which didn't include his best year, 1978), with at least 2 of those seasons putting up an OPS+ better than LoDuca's all-star year, as well as accumulating a career OPS+ as a Met 10 points higher than LoDuca. Stearns did have a down year in `79 (garnering an unearned A-S appearance, likely based on his `78 performance and the fact that somebody on the Mets had to be picked). But Stearns was a better catcher for the Mets, both on a single-season basis, and on a career basis, than LoDuca.

Edgy MD Oct 15 2013 11:10 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I think 1979 was more about the paucity of quality catchers than the paucity of quality Mets, Mazzilli being at the height of his powers and arguably deserving of the ASG MVP that year. Bob Boone was the starter, with Bench and Carter and Simmons also making the team, but as Bench didn't appear and it's unlikely that Boone won an election over Bench and Carter, I'm concluding that Bench was voted as the starter, but neither he nor Simmons were healthy, so Stearns got an invite. Forget All-Star Lo Duca? Might as well forget the moon and sky.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 15 2013 11:20 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Those black caps are just the worst.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 15 2013 11:27 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I'm with you on the part about Stearns being, historically, a greater Mets catcher than Lo Duca. But most of Stearns's all-star selections were questionable. In '77, Stearns was, at best, and generously, the 6th best NL catcher, behind Ted Simmons, Johnny Bench, Bob Boone, Gary Carter and Joe Ferguson. In 1980, he was perhaps the 5th best NL catcher, interchangeable with Tim Blackwell. The gap between Stearns and the top four, Carter, Tenace, Simmons and Bench was considerable. Stearns's 1979 selection was a joke, right? There were some excellent hitting catchers in '79, including the usual suspects Carter, Bench & Simmons and also Bob Boone and Gene Tenace.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 15 2013 11:29 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Those black caps are just the worst. Boy would I love it if not a single day went by on this forum without someone commenting about what an awful player Rey Ordonez, was, what a scumbag owner Fred Wilpon is and how goddamn ugly those black uniforms and caps were.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 15 2013 11:35 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I'm with you on the part about Stearns being, historically, a greater Mets catcher than Lo Duca. But most of Stearns's all-star selections were questionable. In '77, Stearns was, at best, and generously, the 6th best NL catcher, behind Ted Simmons, Johnny Bench, Bob Boone, Gary Carter and Joe Ferguson. In 1980, he was perhaps the 5th best NL catcher, interchangeable with Tim Blackwell. The gap between Stearns and the top four, Carter, Tenace, Simmons and Bench was considerable. Stearns's 1979 selection was a joke, right? There were some excellent hitting catchers in '79, including the usual suspects Carter, Bench & Simmons and also Bob Boone and Gene Tenace. And that's just based on single season stats. If you're also factoring in careers, there's no way Stearns's career measured up to those of Bench, Simmons, Tenace or Gary Carter, who was young, but with a career that began at about the same time that Stearns began his. Carter and Stearns were true contemporaries, at least until Stearns retired. One problem with looking back at season stats, though, is that all-star selections are made primarily based on the player's early season stats. So there's that to consider, too.

Edgy MD Oct 15 2013 11:39 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I'm with you on the part about Stearns being, historically, a greater Mets catcher than Lo Duca. But most of Stearns's all-star selections were questionable. In '77, Stearns was, at best, and generously, the 6th best NL catcher, behind Ted Simmons, Johnny Bench, Bob Boone, Gary Carter and Joe Ferguson. In 1980, he was perhaps the 5th best NL catcher, interchangeable with Tim Blackwell. The gap between Stearns and the top four, Carter, Tenace, Simmons and Bench was considerable. Stearns's 1979 selection was a joke, right? There were some excellent hitting catchers in '79, including the usual suspects Carter, Bench & Simmons and also Bob Boone and Gene Tenace. Well, I've been through 1979 (and Stearns had terrible early season stats that year), but by limiting your arguments against him to his modest offensive prowess, you tend ignore your own thesis in this thread. Managers loved his catching game like they loved Grote's. Herzog openly lusted after the man, and considered a battery of Neil Allen and John Stearns unstealable on --- a lust that blinded him so deeply that he made the most regrettable trade of his career years later by acquiring Allen. As for the Mets, they dealt Grote himself, explicitly stating that they didn't need two starting catchers, and so Grote was the odd man out. (This was the same interview, I believe, in which they damningly stated they would be in the market for a backup catcher because, while they liked Hodges, they liked him as a third stringer only.) Stearns and Carter ignited a brawl after a plate collision the first week of 1979. Can't remember who got the better of it. Managers remember that crap too.

Gwreck Oct 15 2013 11:41 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Boy would I love it if not a single day went by on this forum without someone commenting about what an awful player Rey Ordonez, was, what a scumbag owner Fred Wilpon is and how goddamn ugly those black uniforms and caps were. Don't forget how shitty Citi Field's scoreboard looks :)

batmagadanleadoff Oct 15 2013 11:45 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

Edgy MD wrote: ... but by limiting your arguments against him to his modest offensive prowess, you tend ignore your own thesis in this thread. I don't have a thesis. I linked to that framing article just to stir thing up a little. But I'm not automatically dismissive of the framing piece, either. I remain open-minded. But there's no evidence that I know of, not even anecdotal, that suggests that Stearns was an above average pitch framer. I don't say that there isn't any evidence, just that I don't know of any. But even so, I doubt that catchers, especially Stearns era catchers, got selected to an ASG based on their pitch framing abilities.

Edgy MD Oct 15 2013 11:50 AM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

No, but his general defensive game was certainly highly respected.

G-Fafif Oct 15 2013 12:11 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I distinctly remember Stearns as a last-minute replacement -- really last-minute -- in 1979. He was the sole Met rep in '77, '80 and '82. I'm happy as hell to call him a "four-time All-Star," because it's true and he was one of my favorite Mets of his era, but his greatest credential was playing for a team that usually didn't have an obvious selection. Agreed '78 was his best year. Swan's, too, though each was left by the side of the road as the Zachry Express zoomed to San Diego that summer.

vtmet Oct 21 2013 06:29 PM Re: Was Jerry Grote the Greatest Mets Catcher Ever?

I guess that the answer to the question depends on what a catcher's job is...is it to be the best hitter on the team while being a defensive liability? Or is it to help your pitchers perform better while being an offensive liability?....