The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

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batmagadanleadoff
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The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by batmagadanleadoff » Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:45 pm

We had this thread going last Summer where I doubted the constant repetitive gripes of pitchers that played 30 or 40 years ago about today's "five and six inning starters". I doubted that those old-time pitchers would do any better today innings pitched-wise than today's pitchers. The game has changed so drastically to the point that the brand of game Steve Carlton and Jim Palmer played doesn't exist anymore. Today's players are far superior and the lineups are significantly tougher top to bottom.

Apropos, The Athletic polled active baseball players and among other things, asked them what their biggest complaints are about what former players are saying about today's game.
7. What is the most irritating criticism of the current game coming from former players?

We let players answer this question however they saw fit, and they gave us a variety of wide-ranging responses. Eight-two responses, in fact. Most touched on one of three topics they were most tired of hearing about from former players.

[***]

Overlooking the current game’s degree of difficulty

“You have to understand that players today are so damn good. … The length of the lineups and the length of pitching staffs has changed, even in the last seven, eight years.”

“The lack of respect for difference in pitching quality.”

“I feel like they’re too far removed to understand how hard this game is.”

“Just throw strikes — their strike zone was three times the size.”

“‘Too many strikeouts’ — they had three guys in the league who threw 95, and now the first guy in from the bullpen throws 100.”

“That it’s the same game. I don’t think that’s true. I think, unfortunately for us, the talent is just way better across the board. There’s not an at-bat you have off or where you’re like, ‘Finally, this guy.’ It’s always a new arm that’s just nasty — splitters, sweepers. They’re reinventing the wheel. Everyone’s throwing 97-plus now. It’s the same game but played at a much higher level.”

Toughness (or lack thereof)

“I think a lot of them say some guys don’t run hard. I think guys are a little bit better at managing their bodies (now).”

“You hear older players say that the game is a little softer. … I just think the game has changed. … They also say pitchers only care about velocity and stuff, but I don’t think that’s true. I think pitchers still are pitchers down to their core. The main focus is to get outs. We’ve just found different ways to go about (it).”

“That we complain too much. ‘Back in my day’ or ‘If we had all this stuff…'”
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/552996 ... anization/
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Edgy MD
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Re: Take a chance on Thor?

Post by Edgy MD » Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:16 pm

Old timers of today did NOT have a strike zone three times the size.

Pitchers in the nineties and earlier certainly got more pitches off the outside of the plate — especially pitchers with a strong reputation — but as we see every day, that's a reality that's not exactly dead.

But the strike zone is much taller. Rarely did pitchers get strikes even above the belt before the mid-nineties.
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batmagadanleadoff
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Re: Take a chance on Thor?

Post by batmagadanleadoff » Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:19 pm

You could nitpick but the larger point holds true.
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Re: Take a chance on Thor?

Post by nymr83 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:31 pm

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:19 pm You could nitpick but the larger point holds true.
Do you have something to back this up? My gut would be the zone is similar in size but maybe different vertically /horizontally
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Re: Take a chance on Thor?

Post by batmagadanleadoff » Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:35 pm

nymr83 wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:31 pm
batmagadanleadoff wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:19 pm You could nitpick but the larger point holds true.
Do you have something to back this up? My gut would be the zone is similar in size but maybe different vertically /horizontally
You could nitpick but the larger point holds true. Meaning, who cares about the strike zone? The larger point is that today's athletes are far superior to those of three or four decades ago and pitchers from 30 or 40 years wouldn't do any better innings pitched-wise today than active pitchers.
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Re: Take a chance on Thor?

Post by Benjamin Grimm » Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:35 pm

The larger point is very valid.
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Re: Take a chance on Thor?

Post by Edgy MD » Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:19 pm

I think players of today are just as capable of making a self-serving case as players of yesteryear.

Players of today don't tend to run as hard because they're just better at managing their bodies? We all know that both sides of that argument are as weak as boiled cabbage, right?

As for "Who cares about the strike zone?" plenty of folks do. I certainly care, and clearly the player making that argument clearly cares.
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Re: The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by batmagadanleadoff » Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:27 pm

You didn't split this thread too well. Several posts from the original Thor thread belong here, where we're comparing today's game to that of 30 or 40 years ago and discussing the superiority of the modern athlete.
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Re: The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by metirish » Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:28 pm

I'm sure players of each generation have had similar gripes about former players
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Re: Take a chance on Thor?

Post by nymr83 » Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:30 pm

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:35 pm
nymr83 wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:31 pm
batmagadanleadoff wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:19 pm You could nitpick but the larger point holds true.
Do you have something to back this up? My gut would be the zone is similar in size but maybe different vertically /horizontally
You could nitpick but the larger point holds true. Meaning, who cares about the strike zone? The larger point is that today's athletes are far superior to those of three or four decades ago and pitchers from 30 or 40 years wouldn't do any better innings pitched-wise today than active pitchers.
Yes, I would agree with that. I misunderstood that you were trying to make a "larger point" about the strikezone, which is what I would disagree with.
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Re: The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by Frayed Knot » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:31 pm

metirish wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:28 pm I'm sure players of each generation have had similar gripes about former players
And vice versa.
There was a quote I saw many years ago from a former player about how the then newer players didn't play hard, only
cared about money, yada, yadda ... and it turns out it was from Ty Cobb somewhere around the late 1920s.
There was another, from I forget whom, who said that while this Mays kid is a great player, he's no Harry Heilmann.

So, yeah, what's old is new again.
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Re: The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by Edgy MD » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:50 pm

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:27 pm You didn't split this thread too well. Several posts from the original Thor thread belong here, where we're comparing today's game to that of 30 or 40 years ago and discussing the superiority of the modern athlete.
I don't believe I split this thread.
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Re: The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by Frayed Knot » Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:44 am

Tug McGraw, 39 career starts, has more complete games (5) than Jacob deGrom (215 / 4)
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Re: The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by Edgy MD » Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:49 am

Rich Gossage: 37 career starts, 16 complete games.
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Re: The Game Has Changed (split from Take a chance on Thor?)

Post by kcmets » Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:13 am

Frayed Knot wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:44 amTug McGraw, 39 career starts, has more complete games (5) than Jacob deGrom (215 / 4)
That is a fun tidbit of Metsinfo to sock away for another day!
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