Is Acuna doomed?

[roger_that]

I may be clinging to an outmoded notion of how teams treat their rookies, but I wonder if the Mets are committed to sending Acuna to Syracuse for a month or so to make up for the month or so that they called him up at the end of 2024, in order to give themselves an extra year of locking up his services, that is, delaying his potential free agency by a year if he lacks the service time at the MLB level. Is this still how the system operates?

If so, then I think that they may be intending to give Baty a shot as their full-time DH for the first six weeks of the season. Barring injury or other disaster, Baty will also serve as their backup shortstop (Lindor will most likely play every inning at SS anyway) while Acuna gets a chance to rip up AAA pitching. If both do well, they'll call up Acuna in Mid-May and spot him at DH, CF, and 2B, and maybe try to deal Baty off for a strong starting pitcher. If Baty fails, of course, they give up on him, and make Acuna the full-time DH (and backup SS, 2B, CF, 3B etc.), depending on whether McNeil is doing well.

In other words, if my understanding of the Mets' longterm contractual situation with Acuna is correct, the first six weeks of the season are an extended Spring Training/tryout camp for Baty and McNeil (and Siri), and when Acuna has served enough time in AAA to delay his free agency another year, he steps in for whoever isn't cutting it in a full-time role. And if he does poorly at AAA, then it's on to Plan D or whatever.

Am I correct in dooming Acuna to serving a month or so at AAA? If not, it wouldn't be the first time.

[ashie62]

It's not exactly a bumber crop of prospects

Personally, they all start at AAA

[Edgy MD]

No, he is not doomed.

[smg58]

I would think you would want somebody on the bench who could play second base against a lefthanded pitcher, but what do I know?

Having said that, I'd prefer to see Acuna playing full-time somewhere to start the season, even if that means AAA.

[roger_that]

How about my understanding of the Mets needing to send him to AAA to delay his free agency a year?

[bmfc1]

Whether or not free agency is involved, I suspect Donovan Walton will become this year's Zack Short and "go north" with the team to give Acuna regular ABs in Syracuse and get him more reps at 3B. Sooner than later, Acuna is called-up and Walton is released.

[metirish]

How about my understanding of the Mets needing to send him to AAA to delay his free agency a year?

Makes sense, if he's not going to start and get regular at-bats

[Buck4Prez]

probably all but given really. They don't have a spot to give him regular playing time. He's got 0.016 years of service time, so they just really need to keep that under 0.9 or whatever for the bonus of an extra year. Who knows if he'll be good enough that they even have to worry about team control for 2032. You get him the playing time in Syracuse

[roger_that]

So, doomed to spend April in Syracuse, then. I agree--he needs the ABs, the Mets need to delay his service by about a month, they don't really need a backup SS now.

[Gwreck]

I think that they may be intending to give Baty a shot as their full-time DH for the first six weeks of the season.

What makes you think the Winker/Marte platoon won’t happen?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, unless he gets hurt, Winker is going to be the lefty DH. I'm less sure about Marte from the right side. I see a lot about the Royals wanting to trade for him, but as with many things on the Internet it's hard to say whether that's based on real reporting or on somebody's stray thought gone viral.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Nobody's really answered the original question, so here goes:

I may be clinging to an outmoded notion of how teams treat their rookies, but I wonder if the Mets are committed to sending Acuna to Syracuse for a month or so to make up for the month or so that they called him up at the end of 2024, in order to give themselves an extra year of locking up his services, that is, delaying his potential free agency by a year if he lacks the service time at the MLB level. Is this still how the system operates?

Yes, the Mets can delay Acuna's free agency eligibility by an entire season or calendar year by keeping him at AAA this season for a few weeks. If so, Acuna's Syracuse stint need not occur at the beginning of the 2025 season, but instead, can occur at any point in the season. Also, his late 2024 call-up (or cup of coffee) plays no part in this calculation.

A player is eligible for free agency after accumulating six years of service time -- that is six years of service time either on the active 26 man roster or on the IL. A player is credited with one day of service time for each day that he is either on the active roster or on the IL. A player is credited with a year of service when he accumulates at least 172 days of service time in a given year or season. A season typically has about 190 days, or something close to that number. So keeping Acuna in Syracuse for about three weeks this year will prevent him from gaining one year of service time this season. This would have nothing to do with "making up" for Acuna's time on the active roster in 2024. The few weeks Acuna spent with the Mets in late September of that season was not enough to give Acuna a year of service time. And Acuna's 2024 service time does not carry over into the next year or any other year for purposes of calculating service time for free agency eligibility. A player who has half a year of service time in one season and half a year of service time in another season cannot combine those two half years to give himself one full year's worth of service time for the purposes of calculating free agency eligibility.

In theory, a team can delay a player's free agency practically in perpetuity if it sends that player to AAA for a few weeks every single season (so long as that player has options). Not so sure how the union and the fans would react though, especially if that player was a star.

[roger_that]

I think that they may be intending to give Baty a shot as their full-time DH for the first six weeks of the season.

What makes you think the Winker/Marte platoon won’t happen?

I haven't checked lately, but Baty seemed to be outperforming them with the bat considerably this spring. I'd be tempted personally to favor Baty's development rather than giving additional chances to guys whose upside is lower than his and pretty well known at this point.

I like Winker (Marte not so much) but I think Baty has real upside. He may be one of those freak cases who fails in MLB at-bat after MLB at-bat by pure chance. If you look at his minor league OBPs, he gets on-base almost exactly .100 times more in the minors than in the majors, .282 to .382, something like that. I'd give him every chance possible to prove that he isn't a major league star. Winker and Marte have shown us what they can do, and they'll still be around if Baty fails again.

[Buck4Prez]

Nobody's really answered the original question, so here goes:

I may be clinging to an outmoded notion of how teams treat their rookies, but I wonder if the Mets are committed to sending Acuna to Syracuse for a month or so to make up for the month or so that they called him up at the end of 2024, in order to give themselves an extra year of locking up his services, that is, delaying his potential free agency by a year if he lacks the service time at the MLB level. Is this still how the system operates?

Yes, the Mets can delay Acuna's free agency eligibility by an entire season or calendar year by keeping him at AAA this season for a few weeks. If so, Acuna's Syracuse stint need not occur at the beginning of the 2025 season, but instead, can occur at any point in the season. Also, his late 2024 call-up (or cup of coffee) plays no part in this calculation.

A player is eligible for free agency after accumulating six years of service time -- that is six years of service time either on the active 26 man roster or on the IL. A player is credited with one day of service time for each day that he is either on the active roster or on the IL. A player is credited with a year of service when he accumulates at least 172 days of service time in a given year or season. A season typically has about 190 days, or something close to that number. So keeping Acuna in Syracuse for about three weeks this year will prevent him from gaining one year of service time this season. This would have nothing to do with "making up" for Acuna's time on the active roster in 2024. The few weeks Acuna spent with the Mets in late September of that season was not enough to give Acuna a year of service time. And Acuna's 2024 service time does not carry over into the next year or any other year for purposes of calculating service time for free agency eligibility. A player who has half a year of service time in one season and half a year of service time in another season cannot combine those two half years to give himself one full year's worth of service time for the purposes of calculating free agency eligibility.

In theory, a team can delay a player's free agency practically in perpetuity if it sends that player to AAA for a few weeks every single season (so long as that player has options). Not so sure how the union and the fans would react though, especially if that player was a star.

Your last paragraph is the hint that your middle paragraph is wrong. The 172 is simply the max. Presumably there was some sort of agreement, with expanded rosters and minor leagues ending earlier, designed to keep teams eliminated 9/10 from just demoting a guy to game the system. You could also option the guy in the middle of the year for a few months, every year. But that's why there are option years, pretty soon you won't be able to do that, and if you want to send him down he becomes a free agent earlier.

They would need to keep Luis down for roughly 30 days.

ZiPS is highest on him, but even they only project 136 games. (no one projects him to be a good hitter btw)

This is also his last option year. They can keep him down now, but next year they have to play him.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Nobody's really answered the original question, so here goes:

I may be clinging to an outmoded notion of how teams treat their rookies, but I wonder if the Mets are committed to sending Acuna to Syracuse for a month or so to make up for the month or so that they called him up at the end of 2024, in order to give themselves an extra year of locking up his services, that is, delaying his potential free agency by a year if he lacks the service time at the MLB level. Is this still how the system operates?

Yes, the Mets can delay Acuna's free agency eligibility by an entire season or calendar year by keeping him at AAA this season for a few weeks. If so, Acuna's Syracuse stint need not occur at the beginning of the 2025 season, but instead, can occur at any point in the season. Also, his late 2024 call-up (or cup of coffee) plays no part in this calculation.

A player is eligible for free agency after accumulating six years of service time -- that is six years of service time either on the active 26 man roster or on the IL. A player is credited with one day of service time for each day that he is either on the active roster or on the IL. A player is credited with a year of service when he accumulates at least 172 days of service time in a given year or season. A season typically has about 190 days, or something close to that number. So keeping Acuna in Syracuse for about three weeks this year will prevent him from gaining one year of service time this season. This would have nothing to do with "making up" for Acuna's time on the active roster in 2024. The few weeks Acuna spent with the Mets in late September of that season was not enough to give Acuna a year of service time. And Acuna's 2024 service time does not carry over into the next year or any other year for purposes of calculating service time for free agency eligibility. A player who has half a year of service time in one season and half a year of service time in another season cannot combine those two half years to give himself one full year's worth of service time for the purposes of calculating free agency eligibility.

In theory, a team can delay a player's free agency practically in perpetuity if it sends that player to AAA for a few weeks every single season (so long as that player has options). Not so sure how the union and the fans would react though, especially if that player was a star.

Your last paragraph is the hint that your middle paragraph is wrong. The 172 is simply the max. Presumably there was some sort of agreement, with expanded rosters and minor leagues ending earlier, designed to keep teams eliminated 9/10 from just demoting a guy to game the system. You could also option the guy in the middle of the year for a few months, every year. But that's why there are option years, pretty soon you won't be able to do that, and if you want to send him down he becomes a free agent earlier.

They would need to keep Luis down for roughly 30 days.

ZiPS is highest on him, but even they only project 136 games. (no one projects him to be a good hitter btw)

This is also his last option year. They can keep him down now, but next year they have to play him.

I agree with you. My last paragraph suggests an absurd loophole by which ownership can really abuse a player's service time. In fact, that loophole never even occurred to me until I was in the midst of writing my prior post in this thread and thinking the post all the way through. And so I checked, and double-checked and then checked again. That still seems to be the rule. One year of service time is still 172 days in a single season. And there's no carry-over or combining of service time from multiple seasons. I haven't found any changes to the rule. Have you? If so, post a link.

[Frayed Knot]

The season is more than 172 days long from first scheduled reg season game through last* but 172 is the amount of games a player needs to be on the ML roster or IL to qualify for one full season of service time. That's so you can't bring a player up on Day 2 of the season and delay his potential FA season just on that. It's more like two-to-three weeks which is what the Cubs did to Kris Bryant in his rookie season, a ploy so obvious that Bryant did the MLB version of suing them over it several years later. He lost that fight via arbitration and had to play a seventh (almost) full season before hitting the market. But it's possible that his action scared some teams into at least not being so blatant about it next time.
But Acuna's 16 ML days from last year DO enter into the equation a little bit as now the Mets would have to deprive him of two-plus weeks in order to keep 2025 from being a 'full' season PLUS at least 16 more to make up for the ML service time he already has under his belt, something that would push the target date to deny him a full season from mid-April-ish into probably early May.

Now having said all that, I suspect this topic is almost non-existent among NYM mgmt this Spring. Acuna is a nice prospect but he's not his brother, or the equivalent of what Kris Bryant was at the same stage. Or, to get a bit more modern, he's not on the level of Bobby Witt or Jackson Holliday. Right now, if you're a NYM fan or exec, you're hoping he's good enough to become an everyday player at some point; maybe that point is this year or maybe it never happens. And if it does happen does that mean he'll never be sent down at some point? Baty & Vientos both were, and Jackson Holliday was banished to AAA for three months last year. Is Acuna even going to be a Met in six years? And if he is will the rules still be the same by then?

In short, there a so many variables and 'what-ifs' that if there's a spot for him on the OD roster then you put him on it rather than worrying about what might be the case at the end of the 2030 season, especially for a team that hopes it's going places this year. And if he pulls a 'Pete Alonso' and turns out to be good enough right out of the box and nails down a spot in the field and lineup from the very beginning and going forward without interruption then that's a good thing.



* more like mid-upper 180s as obviously teams have more than 10 off days/year and remember that the season length was extended by three days a few years back

[Gwreck]

I think that they may be intending to give Baty a shot as their full-time DH for the first six weeks of the season.

What makes you think the Winker/Marte platoon won’t happen?

I haven't checked lately, but Baty seemed to be outperforming them with the bat considerably this spring.

So why not check? Takes 2 seconds.

Baty is indeed having a hot spring but Winker has a .941 OPS in the spring too, so not exactly slumping. Also, this is all based on a small sample size and oh yeah, it’s spring training.

I'd be tempted personally to favor Baty's development rather than giving additional chances to guys whose upside is lower than his and pretty well known at this point.

Interesting thought, but I see three key problems with your temptation: (1) this is not a Mets team that is built to provide “development” - it is supposed to win games right away: (2) the Mets tried developing Baty in both 2023 and 2024 and he didn’t hit at all; (3) Baty doesn’t hit right handed and thus isn’t going to be positioned to take Marte’s PAs even if Starling gets traded.

[roger_that]

I guess I'm higher on Baty's and Acuna's potential than some of you are. I see them both with real potential to be stars this year, and don't want it neglected for some guys closer to the end of their careers. Winker had his moments, but there were long stretches last year when he couldn't hit the ocean from a boat.

[Frayed Knot]

I guess I'm higher on Baty's and Acuna's potential than some of you are. I see them both with real potential to be stars this year,...

And if either/or do become stars this year, then great!
I'm just saying that Acuna isn't the kind of 'Can't Miss' prospect (and even can't miss guys often miss) to where your decisions on him are
based on how it might affect his status at the end of the 2030 season.
If we're talking about a Paul Skenes level prospect then the thinking and the forward planning part changes.

[Frayed Knot]

A player is eligible for free agency after accumulating six years of service time -- that is six years of service time either on the active 26 man roster or on the IL. A player is credited with one day of service time for each day that he is either on the active roster or on the IL. A player is credited with a year of service when he accumulates at least 172 days of service time in a given year or season. A season typically has about 190 days, or something close to that number. So keeping Acuna in Syracuse for about three weeks this year will prevent him from gaining one year of service time this season. This would have nothing to do with "making up" for Acuna's time on the active roster in 2024. The few weeks Acuna spent with the Mets in late September of that season was not enough to give Acuna a year of service time. And Acuna's 2024 service time does not carry over into the next year or any other year for purposes of calculating service time for free agency eligibility. A player who has half a year of service time in one season and half a year of service time in another season cannot combine those two half years to give himself one full year's worth of service time for the purposes of calculating free agency eligibility.

The highlighted part isn't accurate.
Not sure where you got your info but I suspect what you may be misinterpreting is that a player needs 172 ML service days within one season to get credit for a full year, but that doesn't mean he gets no service time if he falls short of that. Pieces of seasons CAN add up to a whole but those pieces need to total to the whole whole (so to speak). iow, the partials must add up to an actual full season (185-ish) where as 172 is only sufficient if achieved within one season.

ex: Mark Vientos has yet to spend a full season on a ML roster* but currently has more than one and a half years (One + 118 days) of ML service time and is therefore on pace for FA-gency after the 2029 season (the one+ year he already has plus '25, '26, '27, '28, and '29) assuming he's up for good now. Contrast this to Jackson Holliday and his 78 days of ML time which puts him on the post-2030 season FA list along with Luisangel and his 16 days.


* < one month in '22; didn't come up until mid-May in '23 and then later was sent down for about a month; and wasn't up permanently until mid-May in '24

[batmagadanleadoff]

A player is eligible for free agency after accumulating six years of service time -- that is six years of service time either on the active 26 man roster or on the IL. A player is credited with one day of service time for each day that he is either on the active roster or on the IL. A player is credited with a year of service when he accumulates at least 172 days of service time in a given year or season. A season typically has about 190 days, or something close to that number. So keeping Acuna in Syracuse for about three weeks this year will prevent him from gaining one year of service time this season. This would have nothing to do with "making up" for Acuna's time on the active roster in 2024. The few weeks Acuna spent with the Mets in late September of that season was not enough to give Acuna a year of service time. And Acuna's 2024 service time does not carry over into the next year or any other year for purposes of calculating service time for free agency eligibility. A player who has half a year of service time in one season and half a year of service time in another season cannot combine those two half years to give himself one full year's worth of service time for the purposes of calculating free agency eligibility.

The highlighted part isn't accurate.
Not sure where you got your info but I suspect what you may be misinterpreting is that a player needs 172 ML service days within one season to get credit for a full year, but that doesn't mean he gets no service time if he falls short of that. Pieces of seasons CAN add up to a whole but those pieces need to total to the whole whole (so to speak). iow, the partials must add up to an actual full season (185-ish) where as 172 is only sufficient if achieved within one season.

ex: Mark Vientos has yet to spend a full season on a ML roster* but currently has more than one and a half years (One + 118 days) of ML service time and is therefore on pace for FA-gency after the 2029 season (the one+ year he already has plus '25, '26, '27, '28, and '29) assuming he's up for good now. Contrast this to Jackson Holliday and his 78 days of ML time which puts him on the post-2030 season FA list along with Luisangel and his 16 days.


* < one month in '22; didn't come up until mid-May in '23 and then later was sent down for about a month; and wasn't up permanently until mid-May in '24

So then there is carryover from one season to the other. That makes more sense, like Buck already pointed out. Otherwise, (like I wrote earlier) a team could delay a player's free agency for many, many years. I got my info from every internet source I checked. Every single one of those sources said that one year of service time equals 172 days of active roster or IL time combined in one given season. But if a player may carry-over service time from one season to another season, then the phrase "in one given season" is superfluous and also confusing.

Here is the explanation for how service time is calculated from MLB's own web site:

Excerpt:

A player is deemed to have reached "one year" of Major League service upon accruing 172 days in a given year.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/service-time

If a player is, for example, allowed to combine two separate half seasons worth of service time to establish one year of service time, then MLB's wording of "in a given year" shouldn't be there.

________

OE: (15 minutes later):

As a follow-up to my post of just above, according to Wikipedia:

If a player is on the major league roster for 171 or fewer days, they do not earn a year of service time, and partial years cannot be combined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_time_manipulation

[Buck4Prez]

Every single one of those sources said that one year of service time equals 172 days of active roster or IL time combined in one given season. But if a player may carry-over service time from one season to another season, then the phrase "in one given season" is superfluous and also confusing.

it's a cap. i.e. if you never go to the minors you don't get 1.05 years of service time or whatever. The weird "cannot be combined" thing from Wiki/posts is confusing though, yes. I'm not sure what they're trying to clarify there. Maybe just that Acuña, for instance, can't take his 14 games from last year and play 158 this year, and add it up to 1. He gets his 0.016 from last year, and if he plays 158/187 this year he'll probably still fall just short of 1 full year of service time.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Of course it's a cap. Nobody's suggesting that a player can accumulate more than one year's worth of service time in a given season. The issue is whether a player can combine partial seasons of service time. Every internet source I've come across indicates that he can't.

[Edgy MD]

Yes a player can and does accrue service time from partial seasons which can and do combine with each other.

A guy who gets 60 days each of his first three years and then plays five full seasons has six seasons of service time under his belt, and is eligible to become a free agent if his contract has expired.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Yes a player can and does accrue service time from partial seasons which can and do combine with each other.

A guy who gets 60 days each of his first three years and then plays five full seasons has six seasons of service time under his belt, and is eligible to become a free agent if his contract has expired.

Makes perfect sense. Can you find a source, though?