Rule of Eight

[Ceetar]

like everything, there's a core 'expert level' thing, and then interesting variations that are also awesome. Taco Bell, to a very many people, tastes delicious. and it does, it's meat and cheese and yummy. It's not exactly pure mexican food though.

All bagels are (provided the bread part is done right) pretty good. You wanna mix strawberry in the batter and dip them in chocolate sprinkles outside? do it. delicious i bet.

but the core competency that defines 'bagel shop'? I'd take it down to less than 8.

Plain.
Everything. (so a plain with 'toppings')
Cinnamon Raisin (something a little on the sweeter side, cinnamon raisin is traditional, but you could swap it)
Egg (or Pumpernickel, or rye, or whole grain, or spelt. This is your 'different base' bagel)

And I think that's it. Everything else is a variation. Sesame and Poppy? Mostly exist for you to have something to do with your teeth the rest of the day. Make a good 'everything' mix (I know this was originally a catch-all, but not in my world) and that bagel is the one that has the additional herbs/seeds on it.

Garlic or Onion are mostly 'intense' versions of everything.
Salt is almost always too much and should be mixed into the everything anyway.
Black russian? That's just a sesame anyway. Marble? looks pretty, but is just a blending of two bagels anyway. rainbow/green/red doesn't really make a new bagel.
Jalapeno? intense. obviously a varietal.

and yum on the bialy. definitely superior to Flagels.

You know, I think I'll make bagels.

[Fman99]

If I'm picking my 8, I'm going with these. There was not a ton of thought to generate this list, these all come right to the forefront for me.

Plain
Egg
Pumpernickel
Garlic
Onion
Poppy
Sesame
Everything

You can keep your cinnamon/raisin, chocolate chip, etc. If you want something round and sweet eat a donut.

[cal sharpie]

Fman has it right.

As mentioned earlier, cinnamon raisin for children - really children under 8.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I will be 57 years old next month and I enjoy a cinnamon raisin bagel. Usually with cream cheese, but I'll eat it with butter if cream cheese isn't available.

THERE! I said it!

[metsmarathon]

cinnamon raisin was my go-to when i was a kid.

in college i found the bagel shop down the street from my dorm made amazing chocolate chip bagels. probably used some bittersweet chocolate or something, so it wasn't too cloyingly sweet, and definitely not hershey's sour. Uh-May-Zing. An perfect pre-race meal before many a cross-country meet.

Now that i'm in northwest Jersey, our local bagel shop does a decent job with their own chocolate chip bagel (and it seems to have improved of late), but where they really excel is their french toast bagel. I don't honestly give a shit that it's not a true bagel, because if they had french toast in poland back when they first invented bagels, they would have invented these things instead, damnit. picture it. an egg bagel, with little pockets of crystallized maple syrup embedded deep inside, topped with cinnamon crumbs and powdered sugar. fuck yeah, you don't put capers or lox on it. you toast it up, slather the insides with melted butter, or cream cheese if you so desire, and have a big ol' grownup party in your damned mouth. it's a fucking rave, complete with extasy and glowsticks and naked chicks and trippy blinking lights. if you're truly a monster you can even make a goddamn taylor ham egg and cheese outta the motherfucker. even i'm not that big a baller. but it can be done.

[Ceetar]

sguar/sweet is awesome and there's nothing childish about it.

That sounds pretty tasty too, how far "northwest" Jersey are we talking here? (Is there more than one NW jersey area?)

[metsmarathon]

Sussex county. Bagel Bistro. 231 Newton Sparta Rd, Newton, NJ 07860. They're still open during the pandemic. and their bakers' dozens go to fourteen.

[Ceetar]

an hour. (though not like we don't have time?) I like my local (Bagel Nosh, Waldwick) and they're good people, but I do think I'm gonna try this 'bake at home' thing.

[cal sharpie]

Naturally I disagree with all of the above.

I recently switched bagel shops because a new one had opened that made them just right: hard on the outside, soft on the inside. No puffed-up bullshit, no sugary bagels (other than the kiddie friendly cinnamon raisin). They had other savory choices, Sizchuan peppercorns for example, but no monstrosoties like sun-dried tomato bagels. Recently, however, their bagels have become puffy roll-like things. I'm considering writing the owner to protest.

[Edgy MD]

See, to me, the inflated variety shouldn't really be considered a problem in and of itself. Vive la différence and whatnot. But yeah, that scenario above is the real deal. When your niche becomes ever-expanding variety, you tend to take your eye off the ball, and quality control plummets.

Think about that first guy to claim he had thousands of songs as audiofiles, congratulating himself that he was the very model of an ... audiophile, I guess.

But you ask him what he listened to them on and it was his laptop, or maybe earbuds, and he hadn't even considered going for high-end earphones, much less quality speakers. And even if he goes for the name-brand earphones, he has no idea what has been lost under compression, because he has fallen for the infinite variety ruse.

On their 1987 album See How We Are, X lamented a world that offered them "seven kinds of Coke," and "500 kinds of cigarettes," while the expanding choices of death just served to increase people's anxiety and create greater alienation between them and the people behind the production.

I don't have a whole lot of answers, but I can't avoid the big questions about economic issues these days. And I'm surprised at how many things — even small things —I end up seeing through that lens.

[Ceetar]

I think the trick to inflated variety and the way to check for quality is if that variety is stagnant or rotational. Like if a bagel shop has a bagel of the week or two, that they're just fooling around with, that's fun. That's good variety. Someone has actively thought about the product. If it's a stale "The last owner had turkey bacon bagels and I just keep making a batch every morning because it's on this dog-eared recipe book" than maybe not.

Same is true of beer bars (when they exist) The places that have 100 taps are not the one you want. You want the ones that can barely maintain the menu because they cycle through stuff so fast.

[metsmarathon]

I mean, you're basically arguing against a place hitting on a winner and keeping it in stock.

the way to check for quality is if the stock sells. if they keep making a peanut butter and poprocks bagel, and people buy as many as they can make, then good on them. no need to phase it out rotationally, unless you're trying to drive up demand by forcing scarcity. or if you don't have the capacity in the joint to produce more of it while also maintaining other stock.

if you have the capacity to roll with two dozen types of bagels, and you sell all of 'em, and making any one kind doesn't prevent you from making more of another, why NOT keep rolling with what you got? you can have some products that rotate on in, as you try new stuff, but if you rotate too much of your stock out, you run the risk of alienating your customers who are looking for a steady breakfast partner.

[Ceetar]

well i mean, how many bagels can one shop sell? you hit a point..

and even so, some bagels, or whatever can be extremely delicious and still only actually appeal to a few people or only appeal as a special treat. You venture too far and, while delicious, it becomes something else. Call it the Chicago Pizza conundrum. It might have it's place, but it's not scratching that 'pizza' itch.

Like, you could make a delicious pumpkin spice bagel that everyone loves, but good chance they're not going to love it in February.

[metsmarathon]

oh, they make a good pumpkin bagel. it's totally seasonal, but when it's pumpkin bagel season, even the french toast bagels fall by the wayside. most everything else they offer as far as bagels go is available year-round.

and for the record, i would not turn down a good pumpkin bagel were one offered to me this very day.

my joint has 20 bagels in their regular menu. some you may argue are bullshit, or redundant. but all sell, and sell fantastically, it sure seems.

plain	onion	egg	black russian	rye	blueberry	sesame
poppy	garlic	french toast	sour dough whole grain	great grain	cinnamon raisin	everything
salt	whole wheat	pumpernickel	apple cinnamon	whole wheat everything	asiago cheese

in fairness, the apple cinnamon does not appeal to me.

[LWFS]

like everything, there's a core 'expert level' thing, and then interesting variations that are also awesome. Taco Bell, to a very many people, tastes delicious. and it does, it's meat and cheese and yummy. It's not exactly pure mexican food though.

It's not Mexican food. Pure and simple. It's American fast food in cartoon-"Mexican" shape-- founded by a white American, who opened up across the street from a Mexican American in San Diego, stole/reverse-engineered their recipes, then franchised the thing. I'm not in favor of willy-nilly accusations of "cultural appropriation," but Taco Bell is, like, the dictionary definition of the phenomenon. Has it introduced many people to a lifelong love of tacos/Mexican food, that they've then expanded to include the actual thing itself? Sure, maybe. But...

Also, I love cheap food, too... but Taco Bell is pretty objectively shit. The meat in their basic tacos is LITERALLY sub-dog-food quality (though tbf I believe the steak is just above).

All bagels are (provided the bread part is done right) pretty good. You wanna mix strawberry in the batter and dip them in chocolate sprinkles outside? do it. delicious i bet.

That's a donut. You've just described a donut. Only, like, not a GOOD donut. Have you ever had a donut that could be improved by being 30% denser, with significant increase in chew? That's what you've just made. A chewy donut. Mazel tov!

oh, they make a good pumpkin bagel. it's totally seasonal, but when it's pumpkin bagel season, even the french toast bagels fall by the wayside. most everything else they offer as far as bagels go is available year-round.

and for the record, i would not turn down a good pumpkin bagel were one offered to me this very day.

my joint has 20 bagels in their regular menu. some you may argue are bullshit, or redundant. but all sell, and sell fantastically, it sure seems.

plain	onion	egg	black russian	rye	blueberry	sesame
poppy	garlic	french toast	sour dough whole grain	great grain	cinnamon raisin	everything
salt	whole wheat	pumpernickel	apple cinnamon	whole wheat everything	asiago cheese

in fairness, the apple cinnamon does not appeal to me.

Do I go for the whitefish or the sable on that pumpkin... or is it more of a sturgeon vehicle? Is a Black Russian, like, pumpernickel with different seeds... or is it supposed to taste like Kahlua and vodka? And if you've got a hankering for French toast in the morning, why not get, y'know, FRENCH TOAST?

I feel like having this discussion in the COVID Era is going to give me a stroke... or at the very least, turn into my personal "Jill Klein Voters."

[batmagadanleadoff]

like everything, there's a core 'expert level' thing, and then interesting variations that are also awesome. Taco Bell, to a very many people, tastes delicious. and it does, it's meat and cheese and yummy. It's not exactly pure mexican food though.

It's not Mexican food. Pure and simple. It's American fast food in cartoon-"Mexican" shape-- founded by a white American, who opened up across the street from a Mexican American in San Diego, stole/reverse-engineered their recipes, then franchised the thing. I'm not in favor of willy-nilly accusations of "cultural appropriation," but Taco Bell is, like, the dictionary definition of the thing. Has it introduced many people to a lifelong love of tacos/Mexican food, that they've then expanded to include the actual thing itself? Sure, maybe. Has it also become the thing itself, to a disturbing extent

Also, I love cheap food, too... but Taco Bell is pretty objectively shit. The meat in their basic tacos is LITERALLY sub-dog-food quality (though tbf I believe the steak is just above).

All bagels are (provided the bread part is done right) pretty good. You wanna mix strawberry in the batter and dip them in chocolate sprinkles outside? do it. delicious i bet.

That's a donut. You've just described a donut. Only, like, not a GOOD donut. Have you ever had a donut that could be improved by being 30% denser, with significant increase in chew? That's what you've just made. A chewy donut. Mazel tov!

oh, they make a good pumpkin bagel. it's totally seasonal, but when it's pumpkin bagel season, even the french toast bagels fall by the wayside. most everything else they offer as far as bagels go is available year-round.

and for the record, i would not turn down a good pumpkin bagel were one offered to me this very day.

my joint has 20 bagels in their regular menu. some you may argue are bullshit, or redundant. but all sell, and sell fantastically, it sure seems.

plain	onion	egg	black russian	rye	blueberry	sesame
poppy	garlic	french toast	sour dough whole grain	great grain	cinnamon raisin	everything
salt	whole wheat	pumpernickel	apple cinnamon	whole wheat everything	asiago cheese

in fairness, the apple cinnamon does not appeal to me.

Do I go for the whitefish or the sable on that pumpkin... or is it more of a sturgeon vehicle? Is a Black Russian, like, pumpernickel with different seeds... or is it supposed to taste like Kahlua and vodka? And if you've got a hankering for French toast in the morning, why not get, y'know, FRENCH TOAST?

I feel like having this discussion in the COVID Era is going to give me a stroke... or at the very least, turn into my personal "Jill Klein Voters."

"Stein". You okay?

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

Interestingly, far-too-wide varieties of shit in retail is one of the things the coronavirus has infected. Until 6 weeks ago, new items, new varieties and alt-remixes of tradtional shit (clean mac and cheese! plant-based yogurt! etc) was the only thing that grew sales but the "long tail" no longer fits on trucks when what you want are 6-week supplies of canned soup.

So really this age of hyper-spinoffs is getting a much-needed kick in the balls.

[LWFS]

like everything, there's a core 'expert level' thing, and then interesting variations that are also awesome. Taco Bell, to a very many people, tastes delicious. and it does, it's meat and cheese and yummy. It's not exactly pure mexican food though.

It's not Mexican food. Pure and simple. It's American fast food in cartoon-"Mexican" shape-- founded by a white American, who opened up across the street from a Mexican American in San Diego, stole/reverse-engineered their recipes, then franchised the thing. I'm not in favor of willy-nilly accusations of "cultural appropriation," but Taco Bell is, like, the dictionary definition of the thing. Has it introduced many people to a lifelong love of tacos/Mexican food, that they've then expanded to include the actual thing itself? Sure, maybe. Has it also become the thing itself, to a disturbing extent

Also, I love cheap food, too... but Taco Bell is pretty objectively shit. The meat in their basic tacos is LITERALLY sub-dog-food quality (though tbf I believe the steak is just above).

All bagels are (provided the bread part is done right) pretty good. You wanna mix strawberry in the batter and dip them in chocolate sprinkles outside? do it. delicious i bet.

That's a donut. You've just described a donut. Only, like, not a GOOD donut. Have you ever had a donut that could be improved by being 30% denser, with significant increase in chew? That's what you've just made. A chewy donut. Mazel tov!

oh, they make a good pumpkin bagel. it's totally seasonal, but when it's pumpkin bagel season, even the french toast bagels fall by the wayside. most everything else they offer as far as bagels go is available year-round.

and for the record, i would not turn down a good pumpkin bagel were one offered to me this very day.

my joint has 20 bagels in their regular menu. some you may argue are bullshit, or redundant. but all sell, and sell fantastically, it sure seems.

plain	onion	egg	black russian	rye	blueberry	sesame
poppy	garlic	french toast	sour dough whole grain	great grain	cinnamon raisin	everything
salt	whole wheat	pumpernickel	apple cinnamon	whole wheat everything	asiago cheese

in fairness, the apple cinnamon does not appeal to me.

Do I go for the whitefish or the sable on that pumpkin... or is it more of a sturgeon vehicle? Is a Black Russian, like, pumpernickel with different seeds... or is it supposed to taste like Kahlua and vodka? And if you've got a hankering for French toast in the morning, why not get, y'know, FRENCH TOAST?

I feel like having this discussion in the COVID Era is going to give me a stroke... or at the very least, turn into my personal "Jill Klein Voters."

"Stein". You okay?

No problem. Just having that stroke.

[Ceetar]

We really need to go the attachment size limit here. I think it wants photos taken in 1998 or older.

[metsmarathon]

but... that's like asking someone who just ordered fish tacos why they didn't just get fish sticks, isn't it?

i don't want french toast. i don't want a bagel. i want a transcendent almalgamation of the two concepts. i want the weight of a bagel, with it's texture and just the right balance between hard on the outside and soft on the inside, sliced in half with a light caramelization of the sugars and a crisp of the dough, with creamy, silky butter melting into all the right places.

not some soggy fucking bread dipped in wet egg, damnit.

good french toast has it's place, mind you. but i can't get that for a buck or so with my coffee, nor pick up a dozen plus two to throw in my freezer for later in the week.

[Ceetar]

I wasn't kidding.

[LWFS]

Lordy. Any good? Or are they waiting for the morning rush?

but... that's like asking someone who just ordered fish tacos why they didn't just get fish sticks, isn't it?

i don't want french toast. i don't want a bagel. i want a transcendent almalgamation of the two concepts. i want the weight of a bagel, with it's texture and just the right balance between hard on the outside and soft on the inside, sliced in half with a light caramelization of the sugars and a crisp of the dough, with creamy, silky butter melting into all the right places.

not some soggy fucking bread dipped in wet egg, damnit.

good french toast has it's place, mind you. but i can't get that for a buck or so with my coffee, nor pick up a dozen plus two to throw in my freezer for later in the week.

This is less like ordering fish taco versus fish sticks, and more like ordering "fish taco"-flavored fish sticks instead of a fish taco.

I get your point, and I'll stipulate-- the heart wants what it wants with its morning coffee. I'll also assert that there's no ducking way you can get a bagel that captures the best stuff about well-made French toast-- crisp on outside, eggy/custardy goodness on inside-- and still also be a well-made, traditional-method-produced bagel. I mean, it'd be cool-- in a way, human-achievement-wise-- if someone could make a coq au vin-flavored fish fillet sandwich, but it probably wouldn't be THAT coq au vin-y, and it probably wouldn't be much of a fish sandwich. It'd be neither... y'know.

[metsmarathon]

fair point. good french toast is sublime. ain't nobody got time for that shit, though, unless you've also got time to do a sit down at a nice sunday brunch. but who dresses up for, and sits down at a sunday brunch... i used to have soccer games to run off to, damnit!

consider the french toast bagel, then, a successful fusion. well, in my eyes at least. you get all of the sweet succulent fench toasty flavor notes, in a filling package that you can grab and take with you, and it will fill you up for the rest of the morning. without all the bullshit crumbs that a muffin would have. and please. it takes three donuts to fill a man like a good bagel can, and that shit is fried and who wants all that lard? no, thee bagel is the perfect carbohydratey breakfast delivery vehicle. and its purpose has been elevated by fusing it with all the flavor that a french toast may have to offer, without all of the distractions and inconveniences.

step into the light. break free of the restrictions of your forebears. open your mind to the possibilities. embrace the sweet deliciousness that awaits you.

oh. side note. all the sweet bagels at panera, and any national chains are bullshit. i'm not a monster.

[Vic Sage]

Limiting varieties is fascist! There, i said it. Viva La difference!

You want intensity? try a salt bagel with lox spread, baby! that's put your blood pressure through the roof, but its worth it.
you want sweet and creamy? Cinnemon-Raisin with apple-walnut CC
you want everything? Everything with butter & CC.
you want ethnic? Pumpernickel with CC, nova, onions and capers.

I've eaten all of those and more. i believe in the rule of "whateverthefuckyouwant"!

[MFS62]

Butter AND CC?
Never heard of that before.
Later