Donald Trump in Hot Water

[whippoorwill]

I would SO laugh my ass off if he was excluded in PA

[Centerfield]

As nice as that would be, I think allowing states to keep a candidate off the ballot would result in chaos.

I mean. Even more chaos than we have now.

[batmagadanleadoff]

As nice as that would be, I think allowing states to keep a candidate off the ballot would result in chaos.

I mean. Even more chaos than we have now.

You better be able to trust SCOTUS for this use of the 14th amendment, because they have the final say and are likely to weigh in whenever the amendment is used for this purpose. And if Trump could be removed from the ballot, who knows how slimy bullshitting partisan wingnut GOP secretaries of state are gonna use this "weapon" in the future. What do you think some secretary of state with Marjorie Taylor-Greene's feeble mindset would do, armed with the 14th amendment?

[Centerfield]

And if Trump could be removed from the ballot, who knows how slimy bullshitting partisan wingnut GOP secretaries of state are gonna use this "weapon" in the future.

I'll be honest. I think I know exactly how they'd use this weapon.

[Edgy MD]

Well, we can't be afraid to apply the law because we think others will abuse it.

The Constitution bans from office any who "shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

I would understand that we can't just say that somebody did those things, but it would have to be first established by a court of law. And if the courts allow people to be banned without such a pretext, the courts are gravely discrediting themselves, and asking for trouble.

[Lefty Specialist]

The 'Shall have engaged' and 'aid and comfort' parts of that are vague in the context of Trump.

He didn't march up the steps of the Capitol with a battering ram. And he didn't buy them guns or bear spray. Don't get me wrong, there's no one more anxious to see him in the hoosegow, but even a guilty verdict in the January 6th case might not meet the standard. At least not with this Supreme Court.

I'm uncomfortable with removing a candidate, any candidate, using the 14th amendment.

[whippoorwill]

I was thinking a while ago, if he’s willing to (possibly) go to jail (martyrdom anyone?) over this, maybe he really does believe what he’s saying.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Oh, he'll flee the country if it comes to that.

[Edgy MD]

The 'Shall have engaged' and 'aid and comfort' parts of that are vague in the context of Trump.

They're pretty clear to me. More importantly, they're pretty clear to a court. Three Proud Boys just got convicted explicitly for engaging in sedition.

There's no guarantee that the former president will be convicted of anything, or that anything he is convicted of will be found by the courts to be explicitly or implicitly tantamount to sedition. But if he is convicted, and it is so found, is that amendment not there for a reason?

I certainly would prefer him to be routed in an election, as well as convicted in court. Over and over again. But the idea that we can't act legally and justly against the man because it will give scoundrels an excuse to attempt to abuse the law and act unjustly feels like surrender to lawlessness.

[batmagadanleadoff]

But the idea that we can't act legally and justly against the man because it will give scoundrels an excuse to attempt to abuse the law and act unjustly feels like surrender to lawlessness.

Agreed. I never said that. Just pointing out what the political party that has abandoned democracy might do with such a potentially powerful tool.

[MFS62]

A federal judge has rejected Mark Meadows' attempt to move the Georgia RICO case to Federal Court.
Hopefully this means other Georgia defendants will find it difficult to move their cases, too.
Love that jury pool.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/08/politics ... X5oR6bZsb8

Later

[Edgy MD]

I have to add that obviously, the 14th Amendment hasn't been put to a test, and it's certainly Constitutionally unclear if a guy who can be legally restrained from holding an office can therefore be restrained from appearing on a state's ballot for a federal office.

Could a person appear on a ballot, win, and be restrained from taking office. And if that should occur, does his running-mate get the gig, or the runner-up?

I assume the former. And if so, the candidate can be immediately pardoned, and perhaps then take office, or maybe a pardon would not change the facts underpinning the ban at all. And the Constitutional crisis rolls on.

[Lefty Specialist]

A federal judge has rejected Mark Meadows' attempt to move the Georgia RICO case to Federal Court.
Hopefully this means other Georgia defendants will find it difficult to move their cases, too.
Love that jury pool.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/08/politics ... X5oR6bZsb8

Later

This is big, as Meadows had the best case for moving it to federal court. The others were relying on him to open the door. Instead it's been slammed in their face. Meadows is appealing, of course.

More interesting is the fact that grand jurors voted to indict Lindsey Graham and the two previous Georgia senators (Loeffler and Perdue) for their interference. Would have been fun to hear Lindsey squeal like a pig on the stand.

[Edgy MD]

It's possible, I'm guessing, that some of the folks recommended for indictment that have so far dodged it are being treated as cooperating witnesses or potentially cooperating witnesses.

So many moving parts.

[MFS62]

I can't dirty the New Year thread with this.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... 234826826/

DONALD TRUMP DECIDED to take time during Rosh Hashanah — the start of the Jewish High Holy days and the celebration of the New Year — to blame “liberal Jews” for voting to destroy America and Israel.

“Just a quick reminder for liberal Jews who voted to destroy America & Israel because you believed in false narratives!,” he wrote on Truth Social on Sunday, presumably referring to the American Jewish support for Joe Biden in the 2020 election. “Let’s hope you learned from your mistake & make better choices moving forward!”

What a shit he is.
This is a week of forgiveness. But he is making it very difficult.

Later

[MFS62]

NEW YORK (AP) — A judge ruled Tuesday that Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House.

Judge Arthur Engoron, ruling in a civil lawsuit brought by New York’s attorney general, found that the former president and his company deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing his assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork used in making deals and securing financing.

Engoron ordered that some of Trump’s business licenses be rescinded as punishment, making it difficult or impossible for them to do business in New York, and said he would continue to have an independent monitor oversee the Trump Organization’s operations.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-rules- ... 26707.html

Later

[Lefty Specialist]

It will of course be appealed, probably using the judge's rather blunt language as a cause for dismissal. Don't expect Tish James to be running the Trump Org any time soon.

[Edgy MD]

President Trump and his representatives have been in contempt this whole proceeding. It's gonna be hard for even the friendliest court to overturn when the party won't submit their evidence or answer subpoenas.

[MFS62]

Melania is trying to save her piece of the pie - she's re-negotiating her pre-nup.
https://pagesix.com/2023/09/28/melania- ... mp-prenup/

Later

[Edgy MD]

Very importantly, the former-president and his attorneys failed to request a jury trial — either forgetting to or actively opting against it — leaving his fate in the hands of a judge he's been actively and publicly shit-talking.

[Centerfield]

Very importantly, the former-president and his attorneys failed to request a jury trial — either forgetting to or actively opting against it — leaving his fate in the hands of a judge he's been actively and publicly shit-talking.

As a young attorney I appeared before Judge Engoron a handful of times. Seemed to be a fair and sympathetic guy so I doubt it will affect his decision making. But, you'd think given his prior decision and his view of the arguments made by the Trump Team, that they'd want anyone but him being the finder of fact.

[Edgy MD]

Gag order placed on all parties after Trump makes social media post suggesting that the judge's clerk is Senate Majority Leader Schumer's girlfriend.

[Benjamin Grimm]

And he thinks everyone else is unhinged.

It's to this nation's everlasting shame that we allowed this man to get to the position he's in.

[batmagadanleadoff]

What a lame-o gag order. He can't comment on the judge's staff? He's calling the Judge himself deranged, a political hack and in the bag. And that goes unpunished? Seems to me that this gag order doesn't stop him from continuing to attack the Judge.

[Edgy MD]

I could be wrong, but the words I read were "all court staff," and I guessed that would include the judge himself.

I imagine he's less afraid for himself than for his staffers, or at least might want to project that, so maybe not. Or maybe he's less likely to enforce it aggressively in his own defense.