Presidential Debate Thread

[nymr83]

It'd be nice if the moderators would make an effort to call out bullshit

Why? Biden can't handle calling out a lying orange felon on a debate stage all by himself? he needs help? but we're supposed to trust him to deal with liars like Putin when he is OFF the stage?

[batmagadanleadoff]

And now the coup de grace: Trump calling Biden a lying bullshit artist. Because of course. Every single scumbag thing Trump ever does, he projects onto his opponents.

[batmagadanleadoff]

It'd be nice if the moderators would make an effort to call out bullshit

Why? Biden can't handle calling out a lying orange felon on a debate stage all by himself? he needs help? but we're supposed to trust him to deal with liars like Putin when he is OFF the stage?

Yes. Because in the real world, not this moronic debate world, Presidents don't have just 10 seconds to act and respond. They can act deliberately, spend the time necessary to prepare thoughtful responses and consult with their experts.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

It'd be nice if the moderators would make an effort to call out bullshit

Why? Biden can't handle calling out a lying orange felon on a debate stage all by himself? he needs help? but we're supposed to trust him to deal with liars like Putin when he is OFF the stage?

Because journalists are supposed to be revealing the truth, not providing a platform for untruths. Their work is being trashed too.

[nymr83]

It'd be nice if the moderators would make an effort to call out bullshit

Why? Biden can't handle calling out a lying orange felon on a debate stage all by himself? he needs help? but we're supposed to trust him to deal with liars like Putin when he is OFF the stage?

Because journalists are supposed to be revealing the truth, not providing a platform for untruths. Their work is being trashed too.

I don't agree with you on the appropriate role of moderators. "Journalists" should be reporting on and fact-checking the debate. "Moderators" should not be acting as "journalists" they should be acting to moderate the debate/discussion between the candidates. The candidates should be doing the talking.

[Edgy MD]

They're journalists too.

It's not their role to debate reason and policy with the candidates. But yeah, they ought to, and traditionally have, called out candidates who have lied to their faces about objective independent facts. Megyn Kelly did, and she paid dearly for it.

The idea that moderators just adhering to the truth is doing one candidate's or another's job for him or her shouldn't be true any more than calling balls and strikes is the ump doing one player's job for him over another. If you don't like to get called on your bullshit, don't bullshit.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Joe Biden on tonight's Presidential debate: "It’s hard to debate a liar.”

I agree. Especially in that format. How the fuck does one even prepare for that? The orange scumbag could literally lie about anything. Anything. The possibilities for lying are limitless, infinite. Plus, it's a lot harder to refute a lie than it is to tell it in the first place. Well, that's the world we live in: it's a post-truth world and anyone who gets their news from FOX or the other right-wing bullshit media is gonna believe whatever the fuck Trump says anyways. If they can believe in QAnon, they can believe that liberals wanna have the choice to kill their babies a few weeks after their born. They're testing out their babies, like on a trial basis, I guess MAGA's thinking.

[metirish]

I didn't watch it, but I have just read two _New York Times_ Opinion articles suggesting that Biden should bow out, by Thomas Friedman and Frank Bruni..

[Lefty Specialist]

A pinch hitter is not possible.

Biden's already won all the primaries, he's the nominee. He had a bad night, no doubt. But Biden dropping out now would lead to absolute chaos.

If anybody should drop out it's a convicted criminal (a point Biden didn't do enough to point out.)

[Frayed Knot]

It is possible.
Chaos? Probably, at least for a while.
Easy? No, but not impossible.

Look, the Dems got themselves in this situation with a 'don't rock the boat' attitude and now are taking the view that as long as they act as if everything's OK with the top guy then it will be and nobody will know the difference. But there's a general feeling (certainly mine) that this wasn't just a bad night, it's who Biden is at this point and, 'Good God', what is it going to be like one, two, ... four and a half years from now?!?
At some point the only thing that might be worse than getting a delegation of guys Joe might listen to to convince him to drop out and taking your chances on someone ANYONE else is saying, 'Oh well, we're on this rocky road to who knows where but turning back and finding a new road is too hard so let's just keep plowing along and hope for the best'.

[Edgy MD]

Of course it's possible.

Whether there's any upside to it is debatable, but of course it's possible.

This is where we're at.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

You'd think if they orchestrate it right it could be a tremendous boost.

[MFS62]

Some perspective from my Mets fan friend in Germany, projecting Biden dropping out:

Yes, Harris has bad polls. But no vice president in office really ever had good ones and it would make a difference if she were the president entering the elections. The problem for Democrats is that there is no clear and obvious unanimous replacement candidate. Basically the current Democrat party represents 80 % of the political spectrum (at least in Germany). From socialists to environmentalists to moderates and even structurally conservatives who lost their attachment to Republicans due to the Trump cult.
An all out battle between a handful of hopefuls from various fractions would be too short term and most likely self-destructive. The most reasonable diplomatic choice - also from Biden´s perspective who is the lone person who can make this move without creating disastrous optics - is Harris. All other hopefuls can then look towards 2028 if Harris loses or see where Harris stands by then if she wins. That of course, assuming that Trump hasn´t crowned himself king yet by 2028.

But Harris would get a boost by being in office as quickly as possible and probably would beat up Trump in any future debate. That would at least boost her profile. But Biden basically is an obviously losing ticket. Is Jimmy Carter still alive? He may as well be as valid a candidate in terms of being a "good person" who is old if you just want to avoid Trump...

I couldn't bring myself to watch it, and I'm glad I didn't.
Later

[nymr83]

A pinch hitter is not possible.

Biden's already won all the primaries, he's the nominee. He had a bad night, no doubt. But Biden dropping out now would lead to absolute chaos.

If anybody should drop out it's a convicted criminal (a point Biden didn't do enough to point out.)

They should both drop out. But one is not dependent on the other. Trump won't drop out because he is an asshole and cares only about Trump.
So should Biden, who is probably the only person Trump can beat right now, stick around? The Democrats could roll out a moderate governor with no significant baggage like Whitmer, Spritzer, or Shapiro and they would absolutely steamroll Trump.

[metsmarathon]

the democrats are obviously painted into a corner, holding the very damp white floor paint roller of their demise.

the only pathway out, is probably for biden to himself resign and pass the torch to harris, and hope for the best. ideally she picks up a moderate governor as her running mate. whitmer perhaps? someone to smooth out the middle of the country, but also to have someone at the helm who can speak to the administrations real accomplishments.

give the non-magas in the country someone to rally around. let trump implode. explode. whatever. leave this not to chance. they need a strong unifying ticket. the nation needs someone to vote FOR, someone who they can feel truly confident in for the next 4 years. biden isn't that. trump isn't that. literally anyone who is neither of those men is that.

let's go. let's cut the shit, and let's go.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I dunno. Just the mere talk from Dems that Biden should drop out shows tremendous weakness and can only undermine Biden's chances even further. This is all so stupid. As if a debate like that should even matter. Inevitably, everything gets so dumbed down. Who the hell are these voters who still need to be convinced that Trump is so unqualified? Trump is right. He probably could shoot somebody on 5th Avenue without paying the slightest penalty.

This is yet another shattered norm: No candidate ever bullshitted at these debates until now. Gaffes, maybe. Dumb comments. But out and out outrageous lies? Never before.

[batmagadanleadoff]

The NYT surveys 12 writers for summary recaps on yesterday's debate. They are all asked: "Who won and why?"

God Help Us’: 12 Writers Rate Biden’s Performance at the First Presidential Debate

This is about as good as it got for Biden:

Jamelle Bouie Well, we had a raspy and stumbling President Biden and a deranged and incoherent Donald Trump, who spent two hours unleashing a stream of lies. Is there a winner here? Nah.

The rest of the takes are much harsher for Biden.

Michelle Goldberg Trump, God help us. He spouted a fire hose of preposterous lies, but Biden was too incoherent to capitalize on any of it. Biden looked ancient and sounded lost. There will now be a new chorus of cries for him to drop out, and I’ll be joining it.

David French Trump won, but not because of Trump. The best that can be said about his comprehensively dishonest performance is that he didn’t seem unhinged. The lower-information voters who are propping up his campaign won’t know how much he lied. Biden lost this debate for a simple reason: He acted his age in a way that can’t be spun and can’t be explained away.

Lydia Polgreen No one won this debate, but there is no question who lost: anyone who plans to cast a ballot for president in November. It was a debacle for Biden. He was barely audible at times. He flubbed answers on his strongest issues, from abortion to democracy. Trump just lied, lied and lied, and no one — certainly not the moderators and, worse, not even Biden — rebutted him in the smallest way. Trump blustered and glowered. He attacked Biden viciously and looked like a bully. This is the choice Americans are facing. This was a disaster for America.

Read it all at https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opin ... loser.html

[ashie62]

This was an effective 90 minute commercial for Orange Mango

Dena will need a pinch hitter to get to the finish line

"We beat Medicare" wtf

[ashie62]

the democrats are obviously painted into a corner, holding the very damp white floor paint roller of their demise.

the only pathway out, is probably for biden to himself resign and pass the torch to harris, and hope for the best. ideally she picks up a moderate governor as her running mate. whitmer perhaps? someone to smooth out the middle of the country, but also to have someone at the helm who can speak to the administrations real accomplishments.

give the non-magas in the country someone to rally around. let trump implode. explode. whatever. leave this not to chance. they need a strong unifying ticket. the nation needs someone to vote FOR, someone who they can feel truly confident in for the next 4 years. biden isn't that. trump isn't that. literally anyone who is neither of those men is that.

let's go. let's cut the shit, and let's go.

Spot on

[metsmarathon]

yeah, i'd love it if biden would've said as his closing argument, "look, i don't need to say a damned thing. my opponent says it all. listen to him. it's a constant stream of lies and bullshit. i know i'm old, and i know i have stutter, but i also have experience, a vision, and integrity. my opponent, a con man, serial grifter, and convicted felon, has none of these. my opponent dug us deeper into the mess of covid, set the stage for russia to invade ukraine, and weakened our alliances and standing on the world stage. He made the wealthy wealthier, while taking away your healthcare and doing irreperable harm to women, people of color, and disadvantaged communities, while ravaging the environment to enrich large corporations. his presidency was all about himself. trump above all else. my presidency is about you, the american people. I have worked tirelessly to help our great nation recover from his first term in office. So you can forgive me if i stand here today seeming more the worse for wear. i've had a lot of work to do. And there's a lot more work to be done, to make our great nation greater, more prosperous, more fair, healthier, and stronger. I may seem old and tired - this job'll do that to a person if they care about the country - but i'm up for it. I've spent my whole life in service to the american people, and i'm not about to stop yet."

[TransMonk]

Coherent bullshit vs. incoherent truth.

I don't need my President to be an avatar for me. I don't need my President to win a cage match or a bar room brawl or even a useless CNN debate.

[metsmarathon]

but my only measure of self worth is whether or not i feel that i can win a cage match against an imaginary, liberal opponent. that's why my truck is so big, my arms and chest so overdeveloped, and my legs so skinny.

[The Hot Corner]

I couldn't bring myself to watch any of the debate for fear that it would be a total shit show with with Trump blustering a string of lies and falsehoods while Biden fails to call him on anything or be forceful and assertive in the face of Trump's blustering, false bravado. I fear for our nation.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Bill Maher's been on a multi-year run pleading for Biden not to run for a second term. He's definitely gonna be I-told-you-soing it on his show tonight.

[Lefty Specialist]

It's going to take a little bit for this to all settle.

When I said it's 'not possible' for Biden to be replaced, it's technically possible but would open up an entire can and a half of worms. And don't be so sure that 'emergency candidate' would beat Trump.

First of all, if Biden were to step down for some reason, Kamala Harris would be the replacement. I like her, but a lot of people don't and there's that whole woman thing. Trump would smoke her going away.

If he were to step down as a candidate only, Harris would still be viewed as the presumptive candidate. There'd be an 'open convention' where anybody could run and the delegates would vote on them. That'd be a shitshow, especially if a bunch of candidates entered and nobody could get a majority for days and days. Remember how the House couldn't elect a Speaker? This would be ten times worse.

That new candidate would have to start from scratch with about 10 weeks before election day, at a significant money and organizational disadvantage. Is it possible? Yes, but..............

Trump got convicted 34 times and nobody said a peep on the Republican side. He even called Biden a criminal last night, that's how cocky he is.