2024 Presidential Election - Take II

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TransMonk
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Re: 2024 Presidential Election - Take II

Post by TransMonk » Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:54 pm

rchurch314 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:35 am
TransMonk wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:32 am I think the late-breaking "undecideds" voted for crazy over preachy.

Dems need to find a way to care about and push progressive ideas in a way that is less self-righteous and smug.

Stupid people don't like to be told they're stupid.
This is the incel maga take, sorry. "waah, the people campaigning to run the country think they know more than me, waah" Duh. STFU and open a book. This stance is solely a republican attack on education and knowledge. On 'global/coastal elites'. It's how they pretend they represent the working class. "Scary lady used a 5th grade word and spoke with confidence! How dare she!"

Jesse Jackson said Obama was "Talking down to black people."
Hillary called him a "posh-elitist out of touch with the working class."

There were plenty of others.

Dems aren't pushing _Any_ progressive ideas, that's the point. Whether smug or not.

They don't hammer home statistics about how much safer immigrants are, how much of a boost to the economy they are, they talk about treating them slightly more humanely at the border, as long as they 'follow the rules'.

They don't talk about how abortion should be 100% legal and protected and how the best way to prevent abortions is legalize them and provide comprehensive healthcare. They hem and haw and point at republicans and say things like "even in the case of abuse and danger to the mother!' implying that if they provided those exemptions the draconian restrictions on womens' bodies would be okay. They invite anti-choice people into the campaign. Abortion has actually always been one of those single-issues for many people. The administration, of which Harris is part of, failed to even repair the damage done by trump the first time, and then you hang out with Liz Cheney and talk about bi-partisanship? That's an anti-choice message and voters knew it. All those white women that turned out for Biden last time, almost definitely in part hoping he'd fix the Roe v Wade mistake? Why didn't they show up this time? Gee i wonder. Maybe if Harris talked a little less smug about how good the job creation metrics looked. Sure, that was it.


No, champion progressive ideas with sincerity. The problem is that the democrats almost to a tee are neither sincere or progressive.

PRIMARY ALL OF THEM. I bet some of you are in jersey. Josh Gottheimer is running for governor. He's the most, or second most, republican-leaning democrat in the House every session. He's got all the establishment Democrat money. He CANNOT be allowed to get the nomination. It's not hard to see the exact same thing that happened with the presidency happen in Jersey with the election next year. There's a really cool teacher, Sean Spiller, president of the NJ Education Association running. Or even Mikie Sherrill, a more moderate former military candidate, seems to be popular. So far Gottheimer seemingly has 4x more money on hand than all the other candidates combined. With the oppressive umbrella of fascism, it falls to the states to maintain some semblance of protection, and you can almost guarantee if NJ falls to republican control, they'll make sure to 'fix' more voting situations to potentially flip the state in 2028.
I'm assuming the STFU take was for the people I was describing and not me. You and I are close on the lack of sincerity and progress from the Party. I'm not stating my perception, but those that have been described to me from people on the ground.

The "she's for they/them, he's for you" ads worked here. And it was specifically that line that worked over anything else in the ad.

Moderates here are not against trans-rights as much as they don't like the pre-declaration of pronouns with every introduction from a Dem. It may be stupid and semantic, but that's the part of those ads that worked in the middle.
i am a patient boy...i wait, i wait, i wait, i wait
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batmagadanleadoff
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Re: 2024 Presidential Election - Take II

Post by batmagadanleadoff » Thu Nov 21, 2024 1:37 pm

metsmarathon wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 11:29 am you will not get the change you want by abdicating the country to the other side in the hopes they fuck it all up so hard that the rest of the population comes to their senses. you will instead get the change you most fear. you will have helped to bring about irreparable harm because good enough wasn't perfect enough in the face of the worst possible alternative. but congratulations on your unsullied ballot, i guess.
This already happened when Hillary wasn't perfect enough. The Dems lost the judiciary. We're going to have a corrupt, extremist, ideological wingnut SCOTUS for the rest of my lifetime. And beyond. This was all on the line eight fucking years ago. It won't be easy to bring back Roe v. Wade. Throwing tantrums on the Rachel Maddow show won't bring Roe back. It took almost 75 years for Plessy v. Ferguson to finally be overruled. It took a war that cost one million Americans their lives and their limbs to do away with Dred v. Scott.
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rchurch314
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Re: 2024 Presidential Election - Take II

Post by rchurch314 » Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:19 pm

TransMonk wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:54 pm
I'm assuming the STFU take was for the people I was describing and not me. You and I are close on the lack of sincerity and progress from the Party. I'm not stating my perception, but those that have been described to me from people on the ground.

The "she's for they/them, he's for you" ads worked here. And it was specifically that line that worked over anything else in the ad.

Moderates here are not against trans-rights as much as they don't like the pre-declaration of pronouns with every introduction from a Dem. It may be stupid and semantic, but that's the part of those ads that worked in the middle.
The STFU is for anyone that thinks "shh, don't talk about trans people" is a valid political strategy. I love pronouns. Asking for them on sign-up forms and the like is a great way to filter out bigots you wouldn't want to work with anyway.
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TransMonk
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Re: 2024 Presidential Election - Take II

Post by TransMonk » Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:51 pm

So, what's the plan, man? We've filtered out the bigots and found ourselves in the minority. Are we just to "tsk, tsk" from the corner and shout "I told you so!" for however long America continues to last?

Surely, you understand the nuance between changing the message and fully abandoning it, right? Gotta change something, because it's getting away from us, partner.
i am a patient boy...i wait, i wait, i wait, i wait
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rchurch314
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Re: 2024 Presidential Election - Take II

Post by rchurch314 » Fri Nov 22, 2024 5:12 pm

TransMonk wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:51 pm So, what's the plan, man? We've filtered out the bigots and found ourselves in the minority. Are we just to "tsk, tsk" from the corner and shout "I told you so!" for however long America continues to last?

Surely, you understand the nuance between changing the message and fully abandoning it, right? Gotta change something, because it's getting away from us, partner.
yes. the changing something is PROTECT THE IMMIGRANTS AND TRANS PEOPLE.

It's not complicated. just freaking care about people, genuinely care about them.

I'm not the one tsk tsking from the corner, that's the Democrats. I'm saying embrace all the people that you've abandoned. That has more support than trump.

In fact, In 2023, the adult population of the United States was 262,083,034 people. trump has support of about 30% of them. If you factor in kids, which I know democrats don't like to do either, even lowering the voting age to 16, auto-registering them the same you do with the draft, and empowering them to vote would be a HUGE boon.. but factor in the kids and the number of republican fascists voting for trump is probably closer to 25%.

They are NOT the majority.
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Centerfield
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Re: 2024 Presidential Election - Take II

Post by Centerfield » Fri Nov 22, 2024 6:10 pm

rchurch314 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:32 pm
We/The Democrats can fall into this trap over and over again if they want, until the country just withers away. There are very few "galvanized white voters" who would've voted for the Democratic candidate, no matter what. The myth of the undecided voter is nonsense, particularly this year.
Are you saying there's no way for the Democratic party to recover with white working class folks? Iowa was blue just a short time ago. Republicans swept in with their fear mongering and hate and tore through that class of voter.

I don't disagree with your message of compassion, but I don't think the Democrats should give up on this portion of the population.
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rchurch314
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Re: 2024 Presidential Election - Take II

Post by rchurch314 » Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:42 pm

Centerfield wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 6:10 pm
rchurch314 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:32 pm
We/The Democrats can fall into this trap over and over again if they want, until the country just withers away. There are very few "galvanized white voters" who would've voted for the Democratic candidate, no matter what. The myth of the undecided voter is nonsense, particularly this year.
Are you saying there's no way for the Democratic party to recover with white working class folks? Iowa was blue just a short time ago. Republicans swept in with their fear mongering and hate and tore through that class of voter.

I don't disagree with your message of compassion, but I don't think the Democrats should give up on this portion of the population.
They're not. It's all the same people. You're not winning any of these 95% fascist republicans that are "working class white people". Let's get the ones that resonate with the "hey, maybe we should actually just make abortion 100% legal, stop bombing arabs" white working class people. Or the white soon to be working class people.

I don't talk to a lot of people, particularly not about politics, but I do seem to come up against a lot of "yeah the democrats/government are all war-mongering out of touch politicians who are concerned about oil interests and the stock market". Those people. They didn't stay home because they saw a "they/them" ad, they don't actually care about that, they stayed home because they DON'T really feel the existential pressure of a trump presidency, because privilege. But they do know every president going back decades seems to be hell-bent on war in the middle east.
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