In Vaccine Thread 2021

[Ceetar]

I feel like the people that confusedly realize that the vaccine is the obvious right choice, NOW, are the ones that would've gotten in fine in March had we not had a stolen 2016 election and an actual president. Politicizing masks and vaccines and it getting covered as a "mask debate" as if there was two sides to something muddied the waters a lot and messed up the education, which is already so tenuous. A lot of the 'soft' republicans have come around lately too, which probably helps. You know, the ones that aren't quite cultists, just want migrants to flee terror 'the right way' and control womens' bodies.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I sometimes think that too, but more likely the same group of idiots would have rebelled if the request to wear masks had come from President Hillary Clinton or President Barack Obama.


It might have been different if it had come from a President John McCain or a President Mitt Romney.

[Ceetar]

I think it'd be a sizeably smaller group, if the messaging coming from the top was a little saner. And I don't know if the mask thing would've continued into the vaccine thing (beyond the already crazy anti-vax bunch) But maybe not, who knows. Of course, with another president we might not even have gotten the pandemic, and even if we did, would've been much quicker to respond. Maybe if the messaging for 4 years hadn't been so garbage, state governors wouldn't feel empowered to threaten school districts for not wanting to kill kids.

[Frayed Knot]

This woman I'm talking about is in her 50's and (at least AFAIK) not political at all. This just seemed to be a decision she was reluctant to make and then finally came around to
after nearly a half-year of mulling it over. And, maybe because I rarely talk to right-wing wing-dings or conspiracy nuts, the people I've talked to who are/were reluctant to get
the vaccine all seemed to be in same frame of mind as her, not influenced by politics but some sort of fear of the new and unknown. Why it took her six months to come to the
conclusion that whatever downside there might be to getting the vaccine was FAR out-weighed by the downside of NOT getting it is something I can't begin to get my head around.

For that same reason I have no idea what's up with Leiter and Smoltz. In a world full of dumb jocks neither one of them would have been near the top of my list, but I guess
yaneverknow. I think these networks get themselves too invested in their on-air personalities to simply fire them but this has got to come to a conclusion at some point.

[Ceetar]

Delta is scaring people for sure. Otherwise I'd have thought we'd have had more things like that. I get MLB/sports/etc being too invested in thinking on-air personalities are adding more than going to someone else (this seems so absurd, but different thread) but it seems crazy that adult workplaces that could literally be back to normal are just riding it out. Like, MLB Network doesn't have 11 year old kids working there that can't get vaccinated. They're not mixing with general public.

My wife's company has her testing every day before she leaves for work. They mailed her a box of rapid tests. And she still has to do the regular Covid test that gets sent out once a week. They're all adults! They could mandate the vaccine! It's such a dumb half measure too, because up until summer she was just doing the work on site that she does in PPE anyway, and then coming home to do other like, database/office work. That works just fine. But no, companies want people back in the office.

[Ceetar]

[Lefty Specialist]

My wife's cousin and her husband are Trumpers who've refused to get the vaccine. Her cousin's brother just had back surgery and she wants to visit him; but he said no f'n way are you getting near me until you get vaxxed. It's kind of a Mexican standoff between them. I imagine it's like this with a lot of families right now.

She and her husband are over 65, both overweight with multiple co-morbidities. Won't mask, won't get the shot, and cannot be convinced otherwise. It's like they're begging the Delta variant to come get them. Even if one dies I doubt the other will get vaccinated, that's how deep down the rabbit hole they are.

[Fman99]

They sound pretty fucked to me.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm guessing obviously, but it sounds to me like their anti mask/vax views are more political than anything else.

[Lefty Specialist]

I'm guessing obviously, but it sounds to me like their anti mask/vax views are more political than anything else.

Yes, they're heavy Fox 'News' consumers.

[Lefty Specialist]

Joe Rogan, COME ON DOWN! And he's taking ivermectin, so he'll be shitting himself in the bed he's too weak to get out of. I love it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... gan-covid/

[nymr83]

Joe Rogan, COME ON DOWN! And he's taking ivermectin, so he'll be shitting himself in the bed he's too weak to get out of. I love it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... gan-covid/

why are they calling it "unproven" deworming medicine? why not just "snake oil"?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Joe Rogan, COME ON DOWN! And he's taking ivermectin, so he'll be shitting himself in the bed he's too weak to get out of. I love it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... gan-covid/

why are they calling it "unproven" deworming medicine? why not just "snake oil"?

He'll probably come out of covid OK and then credit ivermectin for his recovery.

[Frayed Knot]

From the linked WaPo article:
Rogan told his followers his diagnosis forced him to reschedule his upcoming show in Nashville until late October.
“My apologies to everyone, obviously it’s nothing I can control. [Umm, yes you can, it's called a vaccine]
It is what it is, crazy times we’re living in, ... But a wonderful heartfelt thank you to modern medicine for pulling me
out of this so quickly and easily.”[/i] [so "modern medicine" is a good thing but the Covid vaccine is not?!?]

why are they calling it "unproven" deworming medicine? why not just "snake oil"?

Actually it's not unproven at all; I'm sure it deworms horses and cows quite effectively.
Now if only he were a horse or cow ... and if only Covid were caused by small worms ... and if only something
which reams out your digestive track also cleared out the lungs where Covid does most of its work.
But aside from those minor differences I'm sure it could be a very effective treatment.

[Ceetar]

I believe it did have some positive results in a bacterial infection study or something, but Covid ain't that either. I wish they wouldn't call it an 'unproven' deworming medicine, even that is going to end up giving it credit for him pulling through. Might as well report "He's going to have a burger for dinner to try to treat it" because that's the same thing. Just drop the unproven. he's taking animal dewormer.

fun fact, snake oil WAS real and effective. Chinese immigrants used to use it effectively, but people capitaliismed it into a scam by making up their own that wasn't actually from the snakes that had good oil.

[Frayed Knot]

So many things about the thought process of anti-vaxxers confounds me, but taking a stance against a vaccine manufactured by top scientists specifically for the condition you have at the same time saying, 'but I'll guzzle this shit instead', is really an amazing leap.

[Frayed Knot]

And right on cue: Covid patient hospitalized after overdosing on Ivermectin

[nymr83]

And right on cue: Covid patient hospitalized after overdosing on Ivermectin

Were they taken to the Animal Hospital?

Perhaps in order to protect people from dumb celebrities, the media needs a new policy like the way they shield the names of victims of certain crimes. the next time a celebrity is touting a drug for off label use in fighting covid, just say "Celebrity X is taking a drug not not meant for humans. The AP will not publish the name of the drug to protect the stupid from themselves."

[MFS62]

There is a scientist who studied stupid people to prove you can't fix stupid:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/ ... story.html

Who knew comedian Ron White was both funny and accurate?

Later

[Frayed Knot]

Rapper Nicki Minaj is, as of yet, unvaccinated and vows to remain so until "I do enough research ... I'm working on that now".

I'm sure the scientific community is on pins and needles awaiting her findings.

[batmagadanleadoff]

For the eight percent who received a J&J covid vaccine:

The J.&J. Conundrum

A guide to whether Johnson & Johnson vaccine recipients should get a booster shot — and how they might do so.

______________

We’ve heard the question from friends, family members and dozens of readers: Should people who received the single-shot Johnson & Johnson Covid vaccine be getting a booster shot?

Karen, a Morning reader in Michigan, wrote to us: “Since receiving mine in March, I am wondering what the facts are. I am frightened.” Leah in California wrote: “Information about J.&J. is not communicated at all!” Lauren from Nashville asked: “What’s the guidance for us?”

Today’s newsletter is for them. We will try to lay out the facts so you can make your own decision.

The question of booster shots for the other two vaccines being used in the U.S. — the double-shot vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer, which are both based on genetic technology known as mRNA — has received more attention. Many experts believe that at least immunocompromised people and older adults are likely to benefit from a third shot.

The situation is murkier with J.&J.’s single-shot vaccine, which uses a more traditional virus-based technology. J.&J. has not received as much attention because only 8 percent of vaccinated Americans have gotten the shot. But that still covers 14 million people, and many of them want guidance.

How effective is J.&J.?

From the start, J.&J. has appeared to be less effective than the other two U.S. vaccines. The latest C.D.C. data suggests the gap may be growing over time, partly because of the Delta variant. “All the evidence we have has shown J.&J. to be less effective in blocking both infections and hospitalizations,” Dr. Michael Lin of Stanford University told us.

About one out of every 20,000 J.&J. recipients in Colorado was hospitalized with Covid at some point during a recent week, according to the state, which publishes statistics by vaccine type. For Pfizer, the share was one in 27,000, and for Moderna it was one in 32,000.

It’s true that any of those chances remains extremely low. Dr. Linda-Gail Bekker of the University of Cape Town, who co-led a recent study of J.&J. and the Delta variant, told The Times, “We believe this vaccine is doing what it was designed to do, which was to stop people going to hospital and stop them ending in I.C.U.s and dying.”

Still, providing people with even more protection against a severe case of Covid has tremendous value. And given the contagiousness of Delta, the chances that a J.&J. recipient would become infected with a less severe case — and infect others — seem real enough to deserve attention.

What about a second J.&J. shot?

With many vaccines, not just for Covid, multiple shots are the norm.

That the Food and Drug Administration approved J.&J. as a one-shot vaccine was never a statement about whether a second shot would provide further protection. It happened because data showed that the J.&J. vaccine was quite effective after one shot, and scientists and regulators felt urgency about getting Covid vaccines into people’s arms.

Experts have long assumed that the government would eventually recommend a second shot. Last month, J.&J. announced internal research showing that second shots boost immune responses. Dr. Vivek Murthy, President Biden’s surgeon general, has signaled that regulators are likely to approve a second shot in the coming months.

What about a different booster shot?

But many J.&J. recipients are less interested in receiving a second J.&J. shot than a follow-up shot with either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine. They know that J.&J. seems less effective than other vaccines, and some J.&J. recipients have been frightened by reports of a very rare but serious blood clot.

Notably, numerous doctors and some prominent experts who themselves received the J.&J. vaccine have chosen to receive a follow-up Moderna or Pfizer vaccine. The list includes Bill Enright, a biotechnology C.E.O.; Zoë McLaren, a health economist; and Angela Rasmussen, a prominent virologist. The city of San Francisco also began offering a Moderna or Pfizer booster shot to J.&J. recipients about a month ago.

There is little data on these vaccine combinations, which is probably the biggest reason to be cautious. But there is data on another relevant combination.

The AstraZeneca vaccine — which is being given in many countries but not the U.S. — is similar in design to the J.&J. vaccine. Many people in Europe and Canada received AstraZeneca for their first shot and Pfizer for their second, and they appear to be faring well.

This approach is sometimes described as “mix and match,” and it makes some intuitive sense. People are receiving the immunity benefits of two different types of vaccines.

“I think I did the right thing to make sure I am as protected as possible from the Delta variant and thus am protecting others who only have one shot,” Rasmussen wrote in June. “Sometimes public health requires making tough decisions without a complete data set to support it.”

Dr. Leana Wen of George Washington University told us: “I feel strongly that the federal government needs to allow boosters for J.&J. recipients.”

During a podcast interview this summer, Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the C.D.C., declined to discourage J.&J. recipients from seeking out a Moderna or Pfizer shot. She said there was not enough data to be sure about the benefits and risks. But when Andy Slavitt, the podcast host and a former Biden adviser, asked her whether she would describe it as a “huge mistake,” Walensky replied, “Not with what I’ve seen so far.”

From the head of a notoriously cautious agency, that was a remarkable and telling statement.

But can you get a booster shot?

That’s a tricky question. Even if you want a follow-up shot, the U.S. government has not approved one, and doctors have generally said no to patients who have asked.

Many people are understandably frustrated by the situation: Some experts are urging a follow-up shot, pointing to the scientific evidence. And some doctors have figured out how to get a second shot for themselves.

Yet if you walk into a doctor’s office and ask for one, you will probably be turned down. It can feel as though there is one set of rules for people with medical connections and another set for everyone else.

What to do? If you want a follow-up shot, you have a couple of options. You can try different drugstores or clinics, hoping to find one that is willing to give a Pfizer or Moderna shot to a J.&J. recipient — or one that won’t ask questions about your history. Or you can choose to be less than fully honest. You won’t be alone.

As Allison, a reader in New Hampshire, wrote to us: “I got J.&J. Do I pretend I didn’t and get Pfizer or Moderna also?”

The bottom line

Here’s the brief case for getting a Pfizer or Moderna shot as a follow-up to a J.&J. shot: The available evidence suggests you will benefit. There are no signs of worrisome side effects so far. And the Delta variant is an even bigger threat to human life than earlier versions of the coronavirus. By waiting, you may be allowing bureaucratic caution to get in the way of your own health.

Here’s the brief case against a follow-up shot: A single shot of the J.&J. vaccine still provides good protection, and the government may soon allow a second J.&J. shot. There is not yet rigorous data on the benefits and risks of the mix-and-match approach with J.&J. And you may need to resort to some deviousness to get another shot.

We understand why so many people are flummoxed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/brie ... ec0732395c

[kcmets]

I'm working on that now"

I hope he, she or they remember to show their work when announcing
the findings and results.

[metsmarathon]

I'm working on that now"

I hope he, she or they remember to show their work when announcing
the findings and results.

i can't wait to read sir mix-a-lot's comments in peer review.

[TransMonk]

Mets fan Jim Breuer cancels shows that don't allow unvaccinated people to spread the virus.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Being a Mets fan and being an idiot aren't incompatible, unfortunately.