Fuck this Fucking Guy

[Centerfield]

Maybe belongs in the "Hot Water" thread. But I hate to see something like this get lost in the news cycle.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... rcna118543

For real, fuck this guy. How does any citizen of this country support this guy. Astonishing.

[Benjamin Grimm]

"A person that thinks those who defend their country in uniform, or are shot down or seriously wounded in combat, or spend years being tortured as POWs are all ‘suckers’ because ‘there is nothing in it for them,'" Kelly said of Trump. "A person that did not want to be seen in the presence of military amputees because ‘it doesn’t look good for me.’ A person who demonstrated open contempt for a Gold Star family — for all Gold Star families — on TV during the 2016 campaign, and rants that our most precious heroes who gave their lives in America’s defense are ‘losers’ and wouldn’t visit their graves in France.”

He continued, “A person who cavalierly suggests that a selfless warrior who has served his country for 40 years in peacetime and war should lose his life for treason — in expectation that someone will take action,” an apparent reference to Trump's recent statements about Army Gen. Mark Milley, who just retired as the chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. “A person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators. A person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our Constitution, and the rule of law.”

“There is nothing more that can be said,” Kelly added. “God help us.”

It's true. What more needs to be said?

[Edgy MD]

There's a joy — there's a great joy — in rooting for the guy who is untouchable. For one, you get to revel in his victories, as corruptly won as they are. For two, you can live with the belief that if you hide behind him, who can touch you? A life without accountability. Who doesn't want that?

So people root for the political strong man, the local neighborhood crime lord, the Oakland/Los Angeles/Oakland/Las Vegas Raiders, Paulie Cee, etc. It happens all the time.

All the time.

I've got a friend who insisted that the "suckers" report should never have been published in the first place, because it initially used un-named sources. I walked him through the long-established journalistic rules of using un-named sources, showed him how they were followed, and he said there should be different rules for the president.

I explained how that's just un-American, that the same journalistic standards and rights apply to all of us; and he said we should reject the story (he never outright said it was false) because only one outlet was reporting it. And I showed him that, no, many other outlets were carrying it. He said that they were all sourced from the same outlet, and I showed him that, no, that's untrue. Other reporters had confirmed independently. FOX News' Pentagon reporter had confirmed the story with her own, independent sources.

He told me he didn't particularly like Trump's behavior, but believed we should care less about him and more about the platform. I reminded him that the Republican Party chose not to publish a platform in 2020. The president didn't hew to a platform so they threw their hands in the air, and decided not to offer one. He told me I was being arrogant, and mean, and ranting, and he was disappointed in my behavior. And he stood there and did nothing as his fraternity brother chimed in and trashed me and my sister and mother.

For what it's worth, last I heard, this friend suggested that he had given up on the former president over his "termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,” comment. But I have little faith that he won't return to vote for the former president if it's him and Biden as the major-party candidates again.

I don't know what the answer is. I've been reading a lot about "off-ramping" — that we need to offer supporters of lies an off-ramp to return to decent society. They found belonging in the group promulgating the lies, and if they don't see a safe route back into decent society, they will resist exiting, or perhaps exit, feel actively alienated from the people they had opposed, and drift back toward the liars, missing the support and group safety they found there.

[Lefty Specialist]

Well fuck John Kelly, too. He could have stood up to Trump in the moment but didn't. Trump would have fired him but he would have left with his dignity intact.

[batmagadanleadoff]

It's true. What more needs to be said?

This is the straw that's supposed to break the camel's back? I thought we reached the "what more needs to be said" moment seven or eight or nine years ago with this deranged psychopath.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yes, we have. There shouldn't need to be anything more to be said. But it's still never going to be enough.

[MFS62]

His comments were despicable.
I find it difficult to understand how a veteran (I am) or a Gold Star family (my son-in-law is) could ever vote for him after reading that. Sadly, I don't believe that the people who voted for him before will take the off ramp, even if offered. People just don't like to admit they made a mistake.
I'm not optimistic or hopeful.
I believe the only hope is that when his empire crumbles around him, he will totally lose it and head for the bunker.


Later

[batmagadanleadoff]

Yes, we have. There shouldn't need to be anything more to be said. But it's still never going to be enough.

If that report was never published and you would've asked me where Trump fell on all of those points raised by John Kelly, I would've nailed every single point to align with what Kelly said. Like bullseye nailed.

[whippoorwill]

Someday he’ll die. Always keep that in mind.

[MFS62]

Someday he’ll die. Always keep that in mind.

I will. LOL!
Later

[Edgy MD]

Sadly, I don't believe that the people who voted for him before will take the off ramp, even if offered.

Well, hopelessness does nothing for the salvation of the country, but plenty of people already have gotten off, with or without a ramp. It's what Mr. Kelly is trying to do now.

[MFS62]

but plenty of people already have gotten off, with or without a ramp.

I haven't seen the most recent poll numbers since the trials started, but the last ones I saw had his support relatively consistent with past polls (40+ % with GOP and beating or tied with Biden head to head). I'm taking the pessimistic view until I see his poll numbers start to decline.

Later

[whippoorwill]

Oh he’s certainly still in vogue here in Podunk, PA and traveling though rural Delaware and Maryland last week shows him to be a hero there too.

[Edgy MD]

but plenty of people already have gotten off, with or without a ramp.

I haven't seen the most recent poll numbers since the trials started, but the last ones I saw had his support relatively consistent with past polls (40+ % with GOP and beating or tied with Biden head to head). I'm taking the pessimistic view until I see his poll numbers start to decline.

Later

If you can't identify anybody who has forsaken him, I don't know what to tell you. That's just not true. And his poll numbers "start"-ed to decline a long time ago. He left office with a 34% approval rating.

Take whatever view you want, but it does nobody any good to deny the facts.

[MFS62]

Consistent GOP support at around 40%:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/po ... ald-trump/

Later

[Edgy MD]

That's not even a sentence, and that graph goes back to the beginning of 2022.

If you don't think we have any obligation to turn people from him — that we can do nothing until people abandon him on their own — then we get what we deserve.

[MFS62]

That's not even a sentence, and that graph goes back to the beginning of 2022.

I you draw your cursor to the left of he Jan. 2022 line, it goes back to Feb. 2021. And his support has remained steady.
My point was that his support among the GOP hasn't significantly faltered. And the graph supports what I said.
You said "plenty of people have gotten off". The data don't support that.
And, I ended the phrase with a colon, not a period, introducing the graph link. It is a proper use of a colon.
Later

[whippoorwill]

Agree with MFS. It’s an uphill battle in most of America

[Edgy MD]

Of course it is. It always is. That doesn't mean to surrender. The dude was president because he fought and won his own uphill battle.

And the graph supports what I said.

It doesn't refute, in any way, that he left office with a 34% approval rating. Because he did.

I don't know why anybody would want to complain but endorse not doing anything ... because polls. But if that's your position, then it is.

I find it awful to hear that you or anybody feels we should do nothing new or different based on the notion that the former president is prospering according to your reading of the polls.

I say that he's prospering (to the extent that he is) because we don't do anything new or different. Why do we waste all this digital ink at all, just to express resignation?

If I propose something that's not good enough, that's understandable. I do it all the time. Please, please propose something better. Just congratulating myself that I'm smarter than my idiot neighbors isn't working, and it does nothing for the victims of the awful regime he's trying to bring about.

[Edgy MD]

The only thing wrong with this country is a deficit of spirit. If he and his ilk want to govern as nihilists, I'm sure not going to respond with nihilism, and I hope you don't either. Fascists feed off of that shit.

[MFS62]

The key to starting the change is education.
But how to educate them is the question.
The company I've worked over 10 years for sells both Trump and Biden collectables. We have to ask customers if they have an email address and the overwhelming majority who buy Trump stuff say they don't have a computer. So they don't have access to what we could call balanced reporting and information (forget for a moment that they don't realize they can access the internet on their phones). They rely on FOX or probably a conservative local station to get their news.
How are we ever going to educate them?
It is a puzzler.
I agree with you that action is necessary to move the needle. What actions would you suggest?

Later

[metirish]

Fuck Kelly and fuck Mark Milley too , Trump is a despicable piece of shit ,they were in the room with him and went along

[Benjamin Grimm]

I can see that point, but as with many other things, there's a spectrum. The people who turned on Trump are better than those who are sticking by him.

[metirish]

I agree with that too, and Milley regretted the DC square incident immediately, Kelly likely stunted some of Trumps worst inclinations as best he could anyway

[Frayed Knot]

I think many of these guys went in thinking, 'I agree with Trump on [certain issues] so if i take this position in his inner circle I can work towards a good solution while helping to tame his worst instincts'.
All should have known better, some realized their mistakes earlier than others.